Episode Summary
In this episode, Mark and Justin discuss three main topics:
The dangers of “vibe coding” and rushing to generate code with AI without proper planning. Organizations should use AI to surface risks and challenge assumptions early, not just to code faster. Design and accessibility practitioners need to be included from the start.
2. “Post Engagement Used to Bother Me” by Charlie Triplett
Technical accessibility posts get more engagement than organizational process discussions. The industry needs to focus on sustainable organizational change rather than just technical perfection. Mature programs are measured by how they handle recurring accessibility issues.
3. “Totally Listening: Using a Total Communication Approach” by Molly Ziegler and Christina Lompado
Introduction to AAC (Augmentative and Alternative Communication) tools and the importance of asking people how they prefer to communicate. Listening doesn’t always mean hearing – effective communication requires respect and understanding of individual preferences.
Additional Highlights
- Student asked Colorado Governor about employment for neurodiverse young adults
- Boulder Startup Week featuring accessibility talks.
- Accessibility discussions appearing in mainstream conferences outside the industry
Transcript
Mark: Hey, welcome to the Accessibility Breakdown. I am Mark, and this He’s still pausing.
Justin: Is… Justin?
Mark: Every week we pay tribute to those who stand out as leading by accessibility and pick three topics that strike us in some way. This week, we’re going to talk about an article by… How do we decide who we’re going to pronounce as Jeana? Jeana.
Justin: Yeah, Jeana.
Mark: Jeana Clark called “Design and Engineering solve different problems; AI initiatives are forgetting that”. And then we’re going to get into an article called “Post Engagement Used to Bother Me”. This is by Charlie Triplett. Interesting article. And then one, I found this last one really interesting. It’s “Totally listening: Using a Total Communication Approach”. And this was, this article is based on a talk that’s done by Molly Ziegler and Christina. Lompado. Did I say that right? Got it. Okay. So I thought that was really interesting. I’m looking forward to getting, I’m like them all, but I was, that was kind of the sleeper for me. So let’s start off with “Design and Engineering solve different problems; AI and initiatives are forgetting that”. And this was the Jeana Clark article. And I will start by saying. I… I liked this one because It made me think about kind of how we use AI in a little bit different of a way. It wasn’t like this revolutionary my gosh, but it was one of those kind of like subtle sort of like, yeah. Things. So having said that, what was your take, Justin on this?
Justin: No, kind of really the same thing. It was, it’s, for those that have been using AI. I mean, there’s certainly I think AI with the vibe coders is kind of portrayed in this always rushing forward, always moving forward, leaving other, you know, other practices like design and accessibility behind. And, but I don’t think that’s always the case. I think that’s just, I think that’s kind of the way we’re portrayed in, like software development is portrayed in, you know. But I don’t think it really, I don’t think it’s really the way that it actually goes everywhere. And so this was what I liked about this article was that it talked a lot about like how design, how accessibility fit in. And in particular, there was a great quote that I, pulled out of this. That was the more important question for any AI initiative isn’t just how do we go faster? It’s which parts of the work improve with AI and which parts need to remain slow. Design and accessibility practitioners are well positioned to answer that, but only if they’re in the room when the questions are asked. That was the point. Those two lines there in this article were kind of really got my needle going. Because those two groups are already left out in a lot of engineering spaces. And if the developers are moving, if engineering starts moving even faster because of AI, then How do we include them? And so that’s where I was kind of really thinking.
Mark: So this struck me in a couple of ways. One, I kind of agree with what you were saying, but my son is a full-stack developer, and so he and I get in these. AI conversations all the time. And he’s had, they’ve, at a place where he used to work, they’ve had an issue where the CEO figured out how to vibe code. And so he started shoving like all this code. Over to them with a sentiment of basically like, if I can do this quick, what’s taking you guys so long and other similar sentiments. And, you know, his first reaction is like, well, geez, you know. This is. Code is five times as long as it has to be, right? AI tends to be extremely verbose when you sit there and vibe code, particularly I think when you hit it over and over again, do this, now change it to this, now change it to this. You end up having… Way more code than you need. And so that’s kind of the first issue. But then I think that What this article highlighted for me is this idea that like, hey, there’s two things here, right? There’s the velocity in which you do the thing that you have to do. And that’s where we lean into this, what you’re calling like vibe coding thing. And I would argue, I think a lot of companies are like, get a hold of Claude and let’s rock and roll. Pump out some code, right? They don’t necessarily understand that. The human piece of that. And then the other piece of it is like, If you’re increasing velocity, are you really doing what you need to do? So in other words, if you’re increasing velocity, are you pausing to make the decisions that you need to make? Or are you just saying, hey, if we start with this prompt now, we can be at this point soon. And that for me, so this is what had struck me for me as I was reading through this, right? Like different analogies start rolling in my head. And this is what I thought was This is like, almost like drug use, right? Or like nicotine use or something like that, where I know it’s a funny, this is where my brain goes, right? It’s a funny analogy, but if you think about it, There’s the instant gratification and that’s what we get stuck on. So I need to write a bunch of code. Here’s a prompt. The code is written instant gratification. Right. And what One of the points Jenna was making in this is like, is that really how you should be using the AI? Or should you be using the AI to pressure test decisions in the beginning from that engineering standpoint, you know, is this really something we should build? Right. Not how fast can we build it? Do we need to build it at all? When we build it is a screen reader going to be able to interpret it properly, you know, et cetera. And the problem with that is that you’re prompting your use of AI is at the start before you write a single line of code. And the reward is at the end. When you realize you haven’t created something that’s Not good. Right. So the action reward Is separated and that’s where like addiction comes in, like the closer the reward, like you inhale cigarette smoke and you go, that felt good. And almost immediately, like within seconds that correlation, that relationship is there quickly and that causes addiction. Right. But if you inhaled a cigarette and then, you know, four hours later, you went, that feels good. There wouldn’t be a close enough association for that addiction. So that’s kind of why I think. Everybody’s jumping in that direction. It’s like prompt code done, right? It’s the reward is so.
Justin: Fast. So do you think that that’s why AI can, you can vibe code something and you can get it like 95% of the way there, but you can’t, sometimes you really can’t dial it in. It’s to drive that addiction?
Mark: Yeah.
Justin: I’m extrapolating on your analogy there.
Mark: That’s probably it. But that’s the other problem with vibe coding is that not only do you have that immediate reward, but you can correct quickly. That’s not what I wanted. I wanted this. I don’t like the way that looks. I wanted this. I don’t like this. And then that creates this layering. I mean, we all know like what… You know, like if you wrote a banking software with cobalt back in the eighties and you’re still layering your code on top of that, like it’s rough, man. Right. Like it doesn’t, unfortunately that kind of exists out there, but that’s kind of what happens. You can do that more rapidly. You can go, well, here’s a crappy beginning. Let’s layer something better on that. And then on that, but it’s still relying on that original sort of base of code. And it’s still trying to work with that original base of code in one way or another. So yeah.
Justin: Yeah. It did make me think what you were talking about there really did make me think, I wonder, so There’s a software… Coding paradigm called Extreme Programming or XP. And XP was kind of built around these 10 tenets, I think it was. Like pair programming and some other things. But one of the things that it was very much against was “big design up front”. Everyone would call it BDUF. And it does make me wonder in this new age of AI, if we’re going to, if the coding aspect becomes, is easier to do. Do we start planning more? In preparation to break out all the different components and pieces that we then turn over to individual developers to ensure that one, they’re directing the AI correctly, but two, they know how it fits into the larger scheme of things. So there may be some more big design up front coming.
Mark: Yeah, well, and it’s probably, it probably all falls back to balance. Right. You know, that, Yeah, you know, it doesn’t make sense to do big design up front. But it doesn’t make sense to do no design up front and just to start coding, which is all about.
Justin: What the vibe coding is.
Mark: That’s what vibe coding is. And to be fair, we’re not really talking about vibe coding, right? We’re hopefully we’re talking about AI assisted coding at some level in a professional organization. So it’s not quite the same as is that weekend vibe coder that comes up with some cool app and, you know, But the idea that you, instead of like, how quickly can we code leadership asking, like, can we surface the risk in our decisions earlier? That I think is a really fair, and it’s saying like, hey, AI can code, right? But That’s not, necessarily its best use case. Like how else can we use it and use it in the software development lifecycle? – Yeah. – Right? To help things along and surfacing risk is one way, you know, the other one that they point out is like challenging assumptions like we assume this is what we need you and I have these discussions all the time this is really what this should look like you called me when I was at the conference in Austin last week and you’re like. Here’s what I’m thinking. Is this really the way this should be? And is the way that you thought about it the really way it should be? And we went, back and forth you know what i mean so challenging assumptions is Probably a really fantastic way to do it. If all that equals velocity, right? Because if you don’t get caught up in those things down the road, right? If those aren’t barriers and pitfalls down the road, you’re better.
Justin: Off. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to code out a prototype for even really a simple page could be a day, two days, you know, to actually code it out. And now within a matter of minutes, I can code out three completely different versions or have AI generate three completely different versions to test assumptions about.
Mark: Well, and that’s really interesting. Like, so I’m a studio arts major and One of the things I realized as I was learning art is that when you’re a kid, you’re like, I’m going to draw… My family’s standing in front of the house. Right. And it’s going to have trees and it’s going to have sunshine. It’s going to clouds and you draw a house and you draw a family and you draw the streets, sun, clouds, you go, here’s my picture. But when you look at what artists, master artists have done, you find multiple studies. Before that big picture is written. So they’ll draw just a hand multiple times. They’ll sketch out the whole composition one or two times and play with it. So you would find what are called studies. And that I agree with you from an AI standpoint, Maybe there’s nothing wrong with diving in and starting to vibe code. If that vibe code is a study and you’re looking at it going, okay, well, this taught me some stuff. I’m going to set it aside. And then you vibe coded. Again, you go, okay, I learned some stuff. I’m going to set this aside. Or you do your three options. And then you say, okay, now I’m really going to get started. And you do something a little different than that. Starting with a prompt the way that you did before. So yes, I think that that’s a great way to think through the process and to challenge assumptions and look for issues.
Justin: Yeah. Yeah, the biggest lesson I think I ever learned in software development was anytime someone comes to you and says, hey, can you just kind of like build up this like little prototype for us? We promise it won’t go into production. Yeah. It always goes into production. It’s always, hey, this was great. When can you make it live? And that’s what vibe coding empowers.
Mark: Yeah. So this is the CEO that thinks he knows what he’s talking about. Here’s my vibe code. Here you go. Take this and use this, guys. And has no idea the absolute mess that he’s passing downstream. Yeah. – Yeah. – All right. So interesting article, go read it. We didn’t dig deep into the tech nut. Of that article. So I recommend people, you should read them all. But so post- engagement used to bother me by Charlie Chaplin. Triplet. This? This was an interesting article because this was more about what This kind of took a couple different angles, like walk through a couple of different doors to make the points. And I think that It was interesting to me because it was like about what works on LinkedIn. In, “, So all these posts are accessibility related, right? And he’s saying like, if you, express something technical, but you leave out details, or if you challenge A notion that people can come in and say you’re wrong, you know, like people love to come up over the top and say, you forgot this or I disagree with the way that you did this. But when you start to talk about. Process changes within an organization to mature their accessibility capability and sustain you know, accessibility to bake it in to do it right. There’s not a whole lot. It’s just like, yep. You know, and so he observed less observation in these bigger, more organizational… – Yeah. Discussions.
Justin: You know what’s interesting? What I took from that wasn’t necessarily… Because I don’t think it was necessarily what he was the point he was trying to make. What I took away from it was there’s not enough people that know about accessibility in big process-oriented ways. And so there’s less commentary, there’s less engagement because so many people in the accessibility industry are really focused on, you know, the details, the points between success criteria and that, you know, that’s where they kind of have their, you know, their bread and butter, so to speak. And, but there’s not a lot of people that have, There’s fewer people, I guess I should say, that are thinking about accessibility organizationally. Because it’s an overlapping but slightly different skill set. And so I don’t… That’s what I kind of took from this. So.
Mark: That’s funny. I took this… So we got a very different… We took something very different out of this. I got… I mean, there’s a lot of things. Like, I think there was a lot of kind of meta points that were made in here, which is good. It’s a sign of, I think, good writing and good thought. But I almost took this as more of a we’re making perfect the enemy of good.
Justin: Yeah. Well, that’s historically a problem for this industry.
Mark: Right. And I think because a lot of the points that he was making were like, and I’m trying to find some, I probably won’t. He says it’s easier to demand perfect, nothing about us without us, gatekeeping… That concretely describes how organizations can start measuring change. So one of his points is like, as accessibility people or people who are engaged in this kind of content, We want to say, this is how you be perfect, right? We want to be like, you can’t get away with this. This didn’t quite work. This isn’t quite as accessible as it should be. And he’s saying, Yeah, like Charlie’s saying, like, hey, that’s and good.
Justin: All well.
Mark: Like that kind of, I don’t think he’s denying that kind of dialogue is It’s good to some degree, but we need to be stepping back and saying, okay, forget about perfect for a minute. Forget about whether or not you, your old text is good for good. And I’m really. Editorializing here, forget about, you know, ARIA, did you use HTML tags instead of ARIA, forget about all that and just is the organization building in processes that are going to lead to better accessibility? And one of the things being on the accessibility maturity model task force with W3C is that The one thing that always resonates in my head is that there’s no light switch when it comes to organizational accessibility. There’s nothing that you can come in and correct a line, a code and be like, we’re there, right? Which is where all these other things are. It is about incremental change. That makes small but meaningful changes over a long period of time. You know what I mean? And it’s just not, maybe it goes back to that same addiction kind of thing is just not quite as satisfying as saying you need to fix this. Right. Or you’re not doing this correctly. And then that’s an easy, you can’t argue it. It’s correct. You go fix it. It would be better, you know, and that’s just more, I think it’s a commentary on what engages people. I don’t know that people don’t understand the point at that point of, Organizational change as much as they just like I see something wrong, I’m going to correct it. You know, I can do it. That’s what I think.
Justin: I do like the way that he closes out the article too with the maturity and dependency. He, one of the things that he talks about is that, A mature program isn’t necessarily how many people can debate whether or not something is accessible or right or wrong, but it’s actually a mature organization is better determined by what happens when that same inaccessible code keeps showing up and what do they do about it. Yeah. That’s important.
Mark: And that’s not an easy answer. That’s not near as easy as the answer of let’s debate how this code needs to be perfect because And people are always looking to us for those answers. And it’s like, well, how does your organization work? What are you trying to do? How many people do you have? What type of roles do you have in your organization? Are you outsourcing? Do you have internal, you know what I mean? Like there’s so many variables that it’s not like, you know, let me give you this link to this article that shows you how to do that. It’s We as experts with all sorts of experience and understanding have to sit down with you and talk through how you might be able to make an incremental improvement in this. And that improvement may not be where you ultimately end up. Right. Maybe you ultimately end up hiring somebody to do that. But today you need to do this little thing as the next step. And there’s going to be 10 more steps before you get to hire somebody to do that or whatever the case might be. So anyways, I love the way that article made me think. And, I appreciate it. Thank you, Charlie. Yeah. Ready for the next one? You got any other points? Next. Next. All right. Bordly listening. And I love the beginning of this title. Totally. Not communicating. Totally listening, using a total communication approach. And this is by… Two women, Molly Ziegler and Christina. Lompato? Lompado? I don’t remember. I think right.
Justin: That’s it.
Mark: Yeah. So before we heated up the mics here, I went and listened to these with a screen reader. I can’t remember at all what it said. I think I thought I had it. Justin and I decided maybe I should just pause and have a screen reader pronounce the name. So I’m not butchering them so bad. And they’re from the International Academy of Hope. I Oops, sorry, I punched my mic. Low case i, capital H-O-P-E, at A11YNYC. And this was based on a talk that these two do. I love this for so many reasons, so I’m going to take a pause here and tell me what you thought of this before I jump in and take the conversation over.
Justin: Well, this was one of those articles that kind of hit me at the right time. Recently I had a friend of mine who was hospitalized and wasn’t able to speak. And he reached out to me and was like, hey, you know, is there some… He sent me a picture from his hospital room of, you know, a gridded layout with, you know, yes, no… You know, different things that he could point to because he just couldn’t get the words to come out. And so. I don’t have a lot of experience with AAC tools. That’s something that I’ve not had a lot of need for, but I was able to kind of quickly do some checks, find a couple of things to send him and got him so that he could communicate with others within his room. But during that process, I found this particular article. And I really just liked the way that it presented it. It talks about the different ways that people communicate and how that hearing isn’t necessarily what we’re after. We have to actually listen to what people are actually trying to communicate. And sometimes that may be filling in the gaps of what they’re trying to do and not making assumptions.
Mark: And listening doesn’t always mean hearing. It can mean all sorts of things.
Justin: Sometimes you read an article and you’re just like, ooh. That just kind of broadens your horizons in ways that you… You didn’t wake up that morning thinking that you were going to go. And this was just one of those articles for me.
Mark: So first of all, you use the term AAC. This was a new term to me, so I want to make sure that people know what that is. Augmentative and Alternative Communication. So alternative to what we would typically consider communication, which is how you and I are communicating now, that’s with Spoken word and gestures and tones and all that kind of stuff. And then the idea that there may be more to that communication and there may be an assistant, an assistance. So your, example of the hospital room that the hospital room was augmented with, charts that could be pointed at to communicate and then That could be all sorts of different things. So this resonated with me for a few different reasons. So back then, in 2013 when I first started getting into accessibility and I was working with interactive accessibility. Kathy and Steve will all have been And they had an employee, Rose Mushad, Moom. Was such a I’m sorry, Rose, but I just can’t do it. I can’t get last names, but, and I’m holding up a copy of her book for those of you who are looking at this on YouTube and her book is called soul of a Rose and Rose, Not only does she have significant mobility impairments, so she really only has gross motor control over her, like her head and her upper body. So she uses a head wand to… Use the computer And she can… Hear, listen, understand English fine, but you can’t speak. She has some grunts, so she can, if you’re communicating with Rose, it’s nice because she can kind of give you positive, negative, or indicate that you’re off on a wrong track by the grunting sounds that she can make. Otherwise, she uses like a word board, right? Communicates that way and then if you’re communicating with her over like you and I are right now, she would be Typing slowly. And you can speak and, you know, there’s certain things like I think one of the things that this article really kind of highlighted, which is something we talk about all the time, is that you’ve got to ask the person how they want to communicate. Yeah. Right. So you can’t just assume communication and they use the term respect a few times in here. And I think that’s what that really is. When you pause and you say, wait a minute. How do you want to communicate or, man, I just did this thing. Is that OK? You know, and you work it out with the person until you get to a place where you really understand each other, that that’s respect and that’s effective. And like one thing with Rose is that if she’s typing something because she types solely because she’s using that head wand. If And it’s a bit gamified, right? You can guess what she’s trying to say, and she wants you to guess because that moves the conversation on. Because she can go, yes, you got it right. She can make that noise that says you got it right. And then she doesn’t have to sit there and type. The rest of the sentence. Every word, yes. Communicating with Rose and asking her and making an effort to understand her preferences really improves that communication back and forth. And I’m going to tell you right now, Rose and I communicate Beautifully and wonderfully. Right. So you would think about all that and be like, that must be tough. And I’m not going to say like it’s easy for anyone. Like, let’s not pretend. Right. But once Rose and I get got into a rhythm with each other, it you just it’s just what you do. Right. And it feels as good as talking to anybody else. The other thing is that I’ve talked with… Quite a few people. So, I don’t know if everybody knows, but I had a friend who who’s deaf back in my 20s and they were learning to sign so there was somebody who primarily communicated through speech and lip reading but that puts deaf people in this weird middle zone where they’re not quite in the hearing culture and they’re not quite in the deaf culture if they don’t if they don’t sign really well so she was trying to learn to sign and So I… I started to learn to sign as well. She was well ahead of me, but, and had incredible experiences in Deaf culture, which I still carry through to today because a lot of our conferences have that. But just… Communicating visually versus auditorily and understanding the spectrum that exists. I have deaf friends who don’t want me to try and sign. They just are going to read my lips and we’re going to move on. And then I have deaf friends who could do that, but they want me to try and sign along with that. And then I’ve got deaf friends who need me to sign, you know what I mean? So understanding all those different ways, even just the assumption that you can kind of pick a direction and go in it, that it may be, if you’re talking about like, I ran into somebody and they needed directions, like you just get through that moment. Right. But if you’re going to actually hang out with somebody and communicate over a long period of time, So, but. You know, we think a lot about That person whose primary language is American Sign Language- And the you know, the sort of large world of business folks who communicate with spoken language. We’ll call it English this time. There is such a distance between those two things. And that it’s extremely hard to bring those two groups together. In That’s one of the things like one of the things I think about a lot is how to solve that. And I’m working like I’m trying to work with people and be like, how can we do that? Like, how can you have a person who’s profoundly deaf that relies on American Sign Language in a group of leaders that are Any group of leaders you might. Think of out there that are sitting there in a boardroom or doing whatever and contribute to that conversation and to those decisions. I think that’s where it can be very difficult. And I want to say that I think that Molly and Christina have written an article, and I know this wasn’t the purpose of the article, but it’s come… The closest I’ve heard to sort of working through Those things. That’s what struck me about this article.
Justin: Yeah, I really like this. This article and the way that it, I’ve always been a big listening overhearing.
Mark: You can tell I’m not, by the way, I dominate conversations. I can, I tell people they should do that all the time. That’s my advice to people. Not the advice.
Justin: As I say, not as I do.
Mark: Exactly. But I just, I think that they broke this down. Like I almost want to read the article, but you guys go read the article, but just in their bullet points here. Receptive language, understanding, attention, categorizing, literacy, expressive language, asking, communicating, advocating and declining, social language, timing, connection, interaction, like they really break down the essence of what language is. Over something specific like the language or the method of communication. And, Well, I hope people go read these articles after they listen to us. And what I haven’t done is I haven’t watched their YouTube video, which I really want to do. But anyways, I just thought this was really fantastic. Fantastic.
Justin: Cool.
Mark: Anything to add? It seems like I wore you out with that last diatribe of mine.
Justin: No. It was, as diatribe goes, it was pretty fantastic.
Mark: You’re always so positive about my diatribes. That’s what I appreciate about you.
Justin: I honestly just like to say diatribe.
Mark: I wanted to let the listeners know I know fancy words like diatribe. That’s why I said that. All right. Well, then we did it.
Justin: Yeah, I got one more thing. I, so I can’t remember if I told you this, last week I got a chance to go to my son’s high school.
Mark: You did. Yes. Talk about.
Justin: That. Yeah. The governor of Colorado showed up to speak at his high school and they invited families in and stuff. So we went and I live in Colorado. This is Governor Polis and one of the kids in the school, and it’s a fairly small charter high school, but asked the question about what is he going to be doing to help young adults that are neurodiverse get jobs in Colorado? And it was funny because my wife and I were kind of seated separately and I wanted to ask a question about some of the initiatives, accessibility initiatives that we have going on here in Colorado. Because we actually are doing some pretty cool stuff in terms of accessibility and the labor workforce here in Colorado for persons with disabilities but to hear it come from a student I was just like kind of like so happy like I didn’t have to raise my hand I didn’t have to say anything and it was great like you know he talked he his answer you know he talked about the labor initiatives they have going about how you know they set up the The Accessibility Review Board within the executive branch of the Colorado government. All the stuff that they’re doing in Colorado to make things more accessible and to help find jobs for everyone. So it was really cool to hear.
Mark: Yeah, there’s two things I love. I love when kids get adults. They come in and they do like, an adult thing and they do it well. But you’re probably a lot like me where when I hear accessibility discussed and discussed well outside of the industry, It’s always memorable. Yeah. I was in a conference in Austin last week and it was a higher education con conference on, on, on data, on institutional research data. So. Like, boring subject and it’s actually kind of an interesting subject, but you know, it sounds boring and, way outside of the industry, but there’s a tie, right? Because with title two, even with the extension, higher education is thinking a lot, particularly when it comes to their systems about accessibility. But anyways, this, this guy, Ben. Did a talk on how to make Tableau, which is one of the products in this industry accessible. And he ran through title two and he ran through what accessibility is and how to make things accessible and the wicked guidelines. And I was just like, I was fanning out. I was like, yeah, it’s easy. And after he’s like, how did I do it? Like you did great. Like you, like everything you said was correct. And you had it all in there and you left out the things you should have left out. And, you know, and I was just like, So cool. Like this is what I would have heard if I was at CSUN or M Enabling or something, you know, but it was, Random industry. So… It’s the kids and it’s to hear that our messages are out there resonating with folks that aren’t sitting here doing what you and I do all day long. You know? That’s what’s cool. Yep. Great story. I love that story. The kids, man, they’re going to figure this all out.
Justin: They are. Us.
Mark: Old folks, we’re not going to have the answers they will. No. All right. Done?
Justin: Done.
Mark: Happy? Satisfied?
Justin: I want to give one more shout out. We’ve got Boulder Startup Week here in Colorado. It’s a kind of a mini conference that’s put on a lot of startup type of things.
Mark: Boulder Startup?
Justin: Boulder Startup Week. But Crystal Preston-Watson is going to be giving a talk on Friday on “Practical Accessibility Framework for AI assisted development” which I’m excited to go to. There’s kind of, going back to what you were just talking about with getting you know kind of bridging the gap between the CEO and the business world and kind of everybody else. There’s a talk on “Disability and Entrepreneurship: Designing work that works for you” that I’m going to go to on Friday as well.
Mark: I’m jealous. What’s the venue just so people know?
Justin: Well, it’s funny because they do it. It’s kind of like all over Boulder. So they’re like different offices, like different startups, like sponsor, Kind of like classes. So like if you were at CSUN, like one office, like you might go to one building and that’s where they might have like some places where different time slots are going. And then you’d go like across the street to another startup who is hosting another series of Yeah, you should.
Mark: Talks. What about a website? Do they have a website with a schedule or something we can post?
Justin: Yeah, I will include it. It’s Boulder.
Mark: Startup. I’ll put it in the notes. I’ll put it in the notes on our website associated with this. Great. Okay. Beautiful. Are you done now? Now I’m done. That was two. Like…
Justin: P.S.s. That’s pretty good. That’s a PS and a PPS.
Mark: A PS and a PPS. Is it PPS or PSS?
Justin: I think it’s PPS.
Mark: I think it is PPS.
Justin: Because I think it’s post-post-scriptum.
Mark: Post Postscript. All right. Well, now that we have broken down accessibility for you, We hope you go forth. And keep it accessible.
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