Episode Summary
In this week’s episode of The Accessibility Breakdown, Mark and Justin discuss three accessibility topics from the past week that they found particularly interesting.
- WCAG A vs AA and Outdated Accessibility Statements, and more! – Nick Steenhout’s blog post that uses a car analogy to explain accessibility levels: Level A is a drivable chassis (bare minimum), AA adds essential features like windows and roof, while AAA is the trim package that may be optional for some but essential for others with specific needs.
- Beware of AI Accessibility Audits – Karl Groves’ article warns about the limitations of AI in accessibility auditing. While AI shows promise, it currently works best for short tasks and struggles with context. The consensus is that a “human in the loop” approach remains necessary for now.
- Life as an Accessibility Specialist: What you need to know – Grant Broom’s article, about the continuous learning required in accessibility, noting that the learning curve remains steep as standards evolve (WCAG 2.2, upcoming 3.0), technologies change, and best practices develop.
Transcript
Announcer: The Accessibility Breakdown by Inclusion Impact Accessibility.
Mark: Hey, welcome to the Accessibility Breakdown. I am Mark Miller.
Justin: And I’m Justin Stockton.
Mark: We have quite a bit to talk about today. First of all, this is our second episode.
Justin: Yeah!
Mark: and I’m really just very pleased with the reaction that we got from the first episode. And the number of people on LinkedIn that not only we had a ton of great people that liked the episode, commented, But we had, it was almost like a who’s who of accessibility re-post our first episode and I can’t tell you thank you to everybody who commented liked listened all of it and the people who shared I can’t tell you how good it just it makes us feel that that you care you know we’re all community and that just made me feel it so I wanted to shout out to people real quick that shared took the time to actually share and make a little comment when they shared So, This is kind of in reverse. Well, I’ll do it in order. I think Ian Lloyd actually started the sharing. I love Ian. He’s from Tetralogical. And he and I have had some conversations in the past. And he’s like, I always viewed you as a salesperson. And I think he appreciates my contribution to the community. So he seemed genuinely excited. So thank you, Ian. And I know you talk to Ian too, right? You don’t call him Ian, you call him Lloyd-y. Yeah. Like… It took me a Yeah, I think he feels that way about you.
Justin: While to feel like I was friends enough with him to call him Lloydi. But I think we’re there.
Mark: That’s an The other one was Michael…
Justin: Inside joke between me and everybody.
Mark: Spellacy? Am I saying that right? Spellacy, isn’t Spellacy? S-P-E-L-L-A-C-Y, from Radancy. He’s paying me a little bit on LinkedIn too. So I think he’s a emerging friend, perhaps, but definitely a friend. And we really appreciate the share from there. And then see if you’ve heard of this guy, Mike Paciello. Come on. Yeah. And Mike, you and I spent a little bit of time with Mike Paciello recently at CSUN. Mike Paciello is, for those of you who don’t know. Big legend. I don’t know if he likes me calling him a legend, but. He’s a legend in accessibility. He probably I’m not done.
Justin: Sees. He certainly didn’t like it when they gave him the lifetime achievement award like 10 years ago at CSUN. He was like, “But I’m not done yet!”
Mark: Wait, it’s true. Cause I was like 10 years ago. But thanks Mike. We appreciate all your support. And then a new friend of mine, her and her husband. Unbelievable. I had an incredible conversation with these two, but Courtney Cannon is, And she’s with ASLwithCourtney. So she’s down in Florida and she teaches ASL, which I think is, as you can probably guess, she herself is deaf. Is really doing a lot, I think, to bridge the communication you know, between people who are deaf and people who are hearing. And I had a, conversations at CSUN about this and Particularly people who rely on ASL primarily as their means of communication. We need to do a better job of really… Including them, right? Inclusion impact, including them in everything and work like what Courtney does certainly is a big piece of that. But anyways, Courtney, appreciate you, appreciate the share. And then my buddy from the W3C AMM working group, the group that works in the accessibility maturity model, Jeff Adams. He’s an incredible voice, newer voice, but a really good one in that. And he’s from UsableNet, so he shared it out as well. So thank all of you guys for sharing it out. And thank you, Justin. For being you. Yeah, isn’t that nice? We’ve got… I’m a nice guy. We’ve got three… So for those of you who don’t know, the way that we do this is we, just tonight I come up with three topics, every week that were kind of the things that hit us. This is stuff that all of you out there are writing about, talking about. That’s showing up and we’ve got three cool topics today. The first one we’re going to talk about is WCAG A versus AA. Outdated accessibility statements and more by our friend Nick Steenhout. How did I do with that last name? Good. Thank you. Yeah. And he’s got a nice blog called Nick’s Accessibility Thoughts. We’ll of course post these so that you guys can find the blogs we’re talking about. The second one is Beware of “AI” accessibility audits. This is Karl Groves, who has a consultancy called AFixt. Karl Groves is an incredible longtime voice in accessibility. So anything he writes, you should pay attention to it. But this one really… Particularly struck me because it’s just so trenchant with AI and people trying to do AI audits. And then the third one that we’re going to talk about is Life as an Accessibility Specialist: What you need to know. And this is from Grant Broom, who is from Labrador. Grant is a longtime accessibility specialist. Thought, you know, advocate mind thought in the business for a long time. Labrador is a newer company that produces, they just created a manual only auditing tool. And I really like that because in a world of AI, in a world of automation, all the stuff we’re talking about, these guys kind of like, I was saying this earlier today, they sort of zigged while everybody else zagged and they said, wait a minute, you need a quiet, organized tool for doing manual accessibility audits. So if you haven’t checked out Labrador, that’s a newer tool service out there. Check it out. It’s really kind of a cool concept and they’ve created, I think, a pretty decent tool and might dig into that more. And other ways.
Justin: – Yeah, but I– – That’s Go ahead.
Mark: What we’re gonna get into. -.
Justin: – I choose that one because, like, the cool product that they have. It’s actually they just happen to have a blog like most people and had an article that kind of got my wheels turning a little bit, especially in light of the way careers and things are going these.
Mark: Days. Yeah. Well, the, in the, Right. The company doesn’t necessarily have anything directly to do with the blog in any of these cases, particularly that one. Just trying to give these people plugs, Justin. They’re all out there doing hard work for accessibility. Let’s give them a little bit of love. So the first one, let’s talk about everybody else. Right, rising tide lifts all ships. So let’s talk about my buddy Nick’s WCAG A vs AA, outdated accessibility statements and more. Let’s start there. Why did this one strike you? So… This will start both of us. We both mentioned this one, I think, at the same time. You go.
Justin: Working in product, You have to… Doing what I do kind of every day. I come up with a lot of analogies to help bridge the gap between someone’s understanding of the world that they know and accessibility or some technical thing. I’ve used the car analogy a number of times to explain accessibility. But in Nick’s article, one of the things that he brought up that I never had gotten a chance to get to that level. He starts talking about the AAA Well, let me back up a second. He talks it he’s talking up. He’s he so he starts off by explaining, you know, level A is the base car, it’s tires, it’s a gear, axles, steering wheel.
Mark: That is that a car joke? Let me back up a second.
Justin: There’s no doors. There’s no windshield. There’s no roof to keep you dry in the rain. But it functionally works. It does the bare minimum that a car needs to It’s a drivable chassis.
Mark: Do. It’s a drivable chassis.
Justin: It’s going to get you from point A to point B.
Mark: Got it.
Justin: Then you layer on level AA. Level AA improves that existing chassis. It adds a roof, it adds windows, keeps the rain, the water out, might add seat belts to keep you safe, those sorts of things. But it’s building upon that. And that, you know, I kind of always got. But then he makes the, it’s not really a leap, but for me it was a leap in this one, but that AAA is the trim package. And I was like, okay, like that kind of makes sense because it’s, A lot of the AAA rules are building upon some of the single A and double A, I said rules and then guidelines. Don’t yell at me in the comments, but the. But in those guidelines, – Please, everyone submit comments.
Mark: But go ahead.
Justin: But in that thinking, I was like, “Okay, so that’s the trim package.” But then he starts to draw the line between a trim package that you have in a typical car, which may be heated seats. Heated seats are, yeah, it’s kind of a nice to have, but if you have maybe back problems or it’s the winter and you have arthritis, those heated seats can make a difference whether or not you’re able to drive your car comfortably. The ability to move the seat forward or back, maybe using an automatic, you know, the automated levers on the bottom or on the side, That makes a difference of whether or not you can adjust the seat. That trim package really does layer. It’s still layering on. And for some people, it may be a nice to have. But for others, it may be a requirement. Yeah, and I was like that’s such a good analogy. I really, it just kind of hit me, especially right now, my back is bothering me after skiing this season. And I tell you get in the car, Even on a warm, sunny day, and you turn that, I’d still turn that heater on just to make my back feel better. And… And so that I can go pick up my kids or do whatever I need to do. It helps take a little bit of that pain away from that lower back. And it just clicked with me. It was such a nicely thought out analogy that I think a lot of people, it’ll resonate with a lot of people.
Mark: Yeah, I agree. I mean, it resonates with me, right? I’m a bit of a car guy. I’m not like a nutty car guy, but and I’m the opposite, right? Like I’m. I basically want a drivable chassis. I still want manual transmission. I still want all these things. But… That’s not… That’s not what other people want, but it’s not what other people want. You know, like I have my buddy Todd Waits. You remember Todd Waits, right? Yeah. Yeah. So Todd Waits has one arm. I’m sure he’d love to drive a manual transmission, but that’s not going to work for him, right? So he needs the automatic. It’s probably much easier for him, to your point, if the seats are automatically automatic. Electronically adjustable, I’ll say. It’s probably a much better experience than having to reach down and do the Yeah. I don’t know. You know, pull that. Yeah. I mean, my other hand is getting leverage and all that kind of stuff. And, I don’t know what only having one arm has to do with heated seats, but I bet Todd enjoys a heated seat. You know?
Justin: But all the controls… Most of the controls for the ability to adjust your seat are on the left. Maybe if, I don’t remember which arm he’s missing, but… He’s Okay, so he may not be able to adjust the seat depending on which side, if he’s sitting in the driver or the passenger seat.
Mark: Missing the right arm.
Justin: So that can make a big difference.
Mark: But I guarantee, I almost kind of wish Todd was here, because I guarantee that he… Takes Nick’s point when he goes to buy a car and that he’s looking at things that are just very specific To your point, not even just specific to somebody who only has one arm, but probably specific to somebody who has… Only a left hand, right? Like there’s probably things he’s looking at going like, well, this is going to be much easier. So, and Todd’s amazing. He’s a keyboard players, one arm keyboard player. And you know, he, he’s certainly one that’s figured out how to accommodate for himself, but I agree with you. I love the car analogy. I liked the point that he made, or it was kind of like a, another aspect of this, where he was talking about outdated accessibility statements and accessibility statements, particularly that referenced outdated or very past. Guidelines and sort of the notion that you’re kind of comfortable because you’ve got the success ability statement out there, but then when somebody looks at it, they’re like, wait a minute, that’s got to be. Whatever, two years old, three years old, like it almost if you get too comfortable and you let that sit, it can almost be a little bit damaging. So and then. You know what I like about that, Justin, is it’s like a little example of why It’s so important to bake accessibility in. Right, like the outdated accessibility statement is a byproduct of two or three years ago treating accessibility as a project, then forgetting about it, right? If you have accessibility baked into your processes, if you’re looking at it as something ongoing, you’re doing it from the beginning, and maybe you could still miss an accessibility statement, but you’re much less likely to be behind like that. So I think it’s just an interesting Kind of like we see you when you have these. I think it’s A.
Justin: I think it’s a smell of a poorly functionally built orally functioning program, accessibility program. From my perspective, Like it’s not. Like if I was going out and evaluating a vendor’s product to see if I wanted to use it or to recommend it for our customer. If I’m looking at that and I see an aged accessibility statement, but I called them up, ” yeah, we do accessibility.” I’m like, “These two things are not aligned.” I got some questions for you. It’s telling me that someone’s either asleep at the wheel or you’re not paying as much attention to it on a day-to-day basis.
Mark: Yeah. And I think like the positive side of this is like, yeah, a lot of people start with accessibility and start with it as a project. Like it’s, understandable that you don’t learn about accessibility one day and then completely get that you are supposed to integrate it into every aspect of your organization and SDLC and do it, right? Like, it’s not realistic. There’s nothing that happens that way, right? So… The other way to think of it is look at your accessibility statement as an organization and if it sort of seems like it’s old and outdated, that might be something to look at, right? That might be a little bit of a signal within your organization that, hey, we did something really good. We focused on accessibility. But we probably have more to think about and we have a little bit more to do. And maybe it’s even evidence to evangelize to leadership and, you know, could spark other things. But if it’s you, if it’s yours, like, I don’t know that I would lay it up as like a huge, like, slap on the wrist criticism as much as I would say it’s a signal and maybe it’s a signal you should pay attention to. So anyways, really. Nice analogy. I love the car analogy. I even was a little bit of a… Wise guy on social media when I, thanked him for helping me find my next car and explain to him that I was looking, probably needed to buy a double A car. Truth of the matter, I want a triple A car because I want it to be fast. Get me in trouble but and.
Justin: One other thing I do want to point out if you do sign up for Nick’s newsletter Great newsletter. There’s a lot of content. It’s funny. He actually calls out. Apparently he’s gotten some feedback that he’s a little content dense in his newsletter. I think that there are newsletters that you read and that’s exactly what you’re looking for. There are other newsletters you read and it’s just a series of links and summaries and You got to have both. But.
Mark: Well, Nick is an incredible mind in this industry, and I think that… He’s got A lot to say and a lot to think about. And that’s where that comes from. So I agree with you. It’s interesting, though, because as a person with dyslexia, right, like I use tools to where I’ll summarize an article, sometimes I’ll listen to the summary ahead of time. And that frames my mind in the way in a way where when i read the article i engage more and because of the way this is a triple a thing right and this is not a criticism if you’re listening nick but it was just an interesting observation the way he had all that massive content broken out and he explained it my summary spent more time telling me about how the content was like broken and i’m like the summary doesn’t work for this right so my assistive technology You know, for all the effort that Nick put into that, it actually kind of broke my assistive technology. My triple A need, as we’ll call it, was being and, you know, no problem. I have ways to It’s just like that.
Justin: Run around.
Mark: But no, that definitely should be in your rotation. But I agree. It’s when you’re ready to sit down and think about something. Nick is the article. His articles are the ones that you want to read. All right. Let’s jump into our buddy Karl Groves. His Beware of “AI” accessibility audits. It’s specific to accessibility audits. This is such an interesting subject and I feel like we’re just like in a in between time here when People… Think AI should be able to do something like audit a page, but it really doesn’t. I mean, audit a site. It doesn’t seem like it’s really happening. It’s, I’m maybe sort of doing some stuff over here, but not quite doing what we think over here. And I, for one, am always trying to sift through the reality of where we are with AI. And you were moaning and groaning when I was saying that. So let me have it.
Justin: I wasn’t moaning or groaning. And or groaning. – It’s your work. – No. It’s a really good article, but I think it’s a lot like overlays. Five, six years ago when all of it, you had an overlay pop up and then another one, and everyone’s kind of, like all the overlay companies kind of started like, doing their thing. And It was… They were approaching it from a technology problem. Like, hey, we’re going to try to apply technology to this very human problem. And so, and that was really a turnoff for a lot of people. And then not only that, but then the technology wasn’t great. Right. And that’s a story unto itself outside the scope of this. But I think we’re looking at AI the same way, is you’re starting to have a lot of people come in and say, “Here’s this technology, let’s apply it, cookie cutter, to all these problems.” You’re seeing it done, by people that I don’t want to say that they don’t know accessibility, but they’re The people that we’re seeing apply it are doing so in a way that you’re like, I don’t really know how much experience you have in this industry and you’re just trying to come in and trying to solve another industry’s problems with your technology.
Mark: Yeah, and I think What? People want to do is they want like to build the magic Hill. Right. Like, Plug your URL in here. Presto and AI is going to make you is conformant to Wicked. 2.2 AA is anybody else, anything else. You don’t need a human to go through and you don’t need all that expensive about that match but and I think that’s the wrong way to look at it. Because if you look at AI and you say, How can I use AI to reduce the number of issues that make it into the production version of my website so that when I have an accessibility audit by a human, it’s finding less. That human’s going to find less issues. Because this is how we use automation today, right? And I’m going to have less to. Fix right after. That’s how We should be looked at. That’s how any technology should be looked at is how can we along the way reduce what we bring to production, right? What we carry all the way to production, not how can I, finally do a final determination. And What was interesting, like, so read this article if you’re listening, because Karl doesn’t just go like, hey, you shouldn’t use AI, right? What was really good about the article is he actually digs into specifics. And one of the things that he specifically said that really was kind of like a mic drop moment for me in it. And when he was like, AI is really good at short tasks. It falls apart when you do like a really long task. And I could relate to that. Almost as good as the car analogy, right? I wish you’d analog, I can’t say the word. I wish she’d made the analogy to a car. That would have been good right you should have talked But for her does Karl love cars?
Justin: To Nick actually Karl that car cars.
Mark: Yeah But the because just in just general usage of an AI, you know, to ask questions, search the web and all that kind of stuff. That’s an experience I think we all have, the deeper and bigger it is the less likely is going to come back with something useful. But these little quick it does a great job on. And then the fact that it hallucinates. Well. Yes.
Justin: So the hallucinations are a little bit more under control. So in AI or LLMs, they’re non deterministic, meaning you can. Run, you can say, here’s how I want you to test this, and it’ll go off and do some task. And then you can say, hey, that was great. You can run it again, and you will get a similar but not the exact same answer every time. No matter how many times you run it. That’s one of the challenges with AI. But don’t.
Mark: You think it’s still hallucinating? I mean, just generally, because the reason why it hallucinates, it’s like a teenager, right? It doesn’t, it will give an answer to the question whether or not it knows the question. So there’s got to be times it runs into stuff. Go ahead.
Justin: Yes, but there is As I was reading Karl’s article, He said car too many times for me to then switch to Karl. As I was reading Karl’s article, I kept inserting words into it. Like we cannot currently do this. AI today does not do this. That’s not to say that Six months from now, a year from now, a lot of these things won’t be addressed, but There’s midway through the article, those that are in the know, we’ll talk about things like agents and context and skills, the OCP servers and stuff like that. And that was… One of the things that if you read the article that he keeps talking about over and over again is context. Context shows up a lot. That’s what skills, that’s what age, that’s what the, AI is all about context and the better you are at providing the context for the tests or the things that you want to evaluate, that’s where the real power is in through that automation. I think that as AI gets better, as the tools get better, the better we are able at describing the context for successfully performing a manual audit or an accessibility audit, I think it’s going to get better. And then that last paragraph at the end, he really.
Mark: Does. Yeah. Yeah. He says, I got it right up here. So I’m bullish on AI and I believe that human accessibility testers will be replaced by AI in the future. Right. He doesn’t have a crystal ball but he’s just saying this looks like the way it’s going so dot and then the next paragraph he gets down to the right model at least for now. He’s human in the loop.
Justin: Yeah.
Mark: Exactly. So he’s acknowledging the potential of AI, but he’s kind of saying… I’m going to do a car thing here. Everybody’s slow your roll. Like don’t jump in and don’t use the big words, right? MPC and skills and agents don’t use those big words to fool yourself into thinking that you can create AI today that is going to replace a human. It’s not going to.
Justin: Happen. Well, I mean, and that’s the thing is, There’s human in the loop. It makes me wonder some of these companies that are springing up, “overnight,” I’m going to put that in air quotes. Like, Do they have auditors on the back end? Do they have any way to validate, to have? Well, that’s it, yeah. Or are they just generating something and throwing it over the wall as an audit? And I think that’s what Karl’s getting to. Right. But if you, on the other hand, you look at the Visperos, the Deques, the Level Access, those, you know, those organizations that have a pretty robust Accessibility service, but that might have technology platforms as well. And they have all that data of audits that they’ve completed. They’ve got to be turning through that and evaluating and training and retraining their models. That’s going to be a powerful thing for them.
Mark: Well, I think it comes down to the race, right? Like when you can have 100 people do 100 audits and you can have 100 AIs do 100 audits and then you test them both. And the AI’s when, then you can say, because, you know, the, Other thing to remember about human beings off doing not it is they’re not perfect either. – Yeah. – They can miss stuff as well, ’cause they’re human beings, right? And then… I would argue Things are going to change and as soon as things change, AI doesn’t now have the data or the context anymore. So in other words, if We stop using websites and we start using something else as human beings. Human beings will have to use that. They will have to make their mistakes and human beings will have to correct that in order to have data to train the AI models with. So it’s sort of like the law. It’s always going to be a step behind. I mean, that’s my little… Me saying that maybe I’m maybe somebody out there wants to argue with me but just on the spot that’s what it seems like to me is that there’s still going to be this aspect of AI being kind of one step behind all right so speaking of manual audits Yeah.
Justin: Yeah, that’s a good transition. Just some thoughts that I had on our last one.
Mark: Do you want to keep going with that? No. Okay. So speaking of manual audits, we talked about this article from. Grant Broome, Life. As an accessibility specialist what you need to know and the grant is part of this group that created Labrador, which is a, again, I love it because it’s sort of zigging when everybody else is zagging. It’s a, hey, we’re… No noise of automation, no nothing. It’s manual only. But let’s talk about, to your point, the article was, the blog post was a blog post. It wasn’t specific about their tool. So, and you came up with this one today and wanted to talk about this today. So tell me what struck you about it.
Justin: Grant’s article. I was reading it. I saw it in Ricky Onsman’s weekly reading list from last week. I was going through and I was like, seeing what Grant and some other folks talk about. This one kind of, I was kind of reading through it. I was like, It’s talking about three things that accessibility people working in accessibility should know. The first one I was like, ” kind of normal.” I think what was the first one? Because.
Mark: Report is the beginning, not the finish line. He’s just talking about that problem where people kind of think like, I got an accessibility report, I’m all set. And then they look at it and they’re like, wait a minute, that’s the… The work hasn’t even started yet. Now the work starts.
Justin: Yeah. There’s other things like assistive technology takes a long time to get comfortable with. Occasionally, you’re going to miss something and that’s okay. We were just talking a minute ago about like, You’re human in the loop. Humans are fallible, that sort of stuff. But the one piece that kind of Bounced around in my head longer than some of the others was number two, the learning curve is steep and it doesn’t really flatten out. And particularly the last paragraph of this, where he says, The learning doesn’t stop either. WCAG 2.2 added new criteria. WCAG 3.0 is coming. Assistive tech changes, browsers change, best practices move. The people that I know are best at this job are curious and don’t mind being a bit wrong sometimes. If you’re that kind of person, you’ll do well here. And it got me thinking about how Back when I was at TPGi, it was go. All the time. And technology is a fluid and moving thing. Frameworks and change, everything is changing all the time from a hundred different perspectives, thousands of different perspectives. And When I… When I was removed from TPGi, left TPGi, dismissed, whatever we want to call it. I felt like this weight had been lifted and I could finally actually take a look around and see what the technology landscape was. And if you are go all the time performing all these manual audits and you don’t have time to take a breath and look up and see how the world is changing around you with respect to things like AI or frameworks or new technologies that are coming out, you’re going to be stuck in a rut. And it’s going to make it a lot easier for accessibility specialists to be replaced by things like AI in the future. And so my hope, and this is what I’m going to tie back around to Karl’s article. My hope is that AI, can get rid of some of the more mundane tests and get rid of those things sooner. Thus freeing people up To think more about context and the type of context that does need to be evaluated as part of AI and to write more about that. Because if you can write more about the situations, it is going to make it You’re essentially feeding the beast early then at that point. But… If we really all do want the whole web to be accessible, then developers and companies are going to rely more and more on AI. On our way into that because developers weren’t listening to us.
Mark: Or I think, so there’s a couple thoughts I have there. One is As the web changes, Because I don’t know that we’re going to be five years from now logging onto a web page the way we do, putting a web page in our browser and looking at it. I think AI is going to change that. So the question is do we use that as an opportunity to bringing accessibility Into that. Change and is AI part of that answer? But the other thing too, like I think you bring up a really good point about when you’re In the fog all in the rush and rat race and the fog all the r. You don’t have time to keep up. And what happens, particularly with large organizations like this, is they start to recognize that. And then you end up with an AI expert that shows up. And that kind of collides with everything else. It doesn’t I’ve not really seen that. Particularly in the context of something like manual accessibility auditing, really work very well because the two worlds are just not They’re too far apart. So you need to And provide time for that expert in a thing like auditing to understand how something like AI affects them. That’s the thing, right? You can’t solve it with like, here’s an AI expert that we’re going to bring in or, and we say AI, it really could be anything, but I think that that’s a really good point where you need the experts to be able to think about those changes themselves. So, yeah, well, good one.
Justin: Yeah.
Mark: I like the choice of that of the that article alongside of Karl’s article, too, because I think that they kind of. Rush around in the same space like you were saying you know.
Justin: Yeah it’s a little bit Yeah, just that idea of always learning, always try to be learning, always try to be you know, and Always be learning.
Mark: ABL, that we should be learning.
Justin: Well, there are a couple of weeks ago on LinkedIn, there was kind of this thing going around and like, you know, I would never call myself an expert and people that call themselves an accessibility expert. Like I would never call myself an expert in. Anything like I I’m always learning something new about something that I know a lot about. And that’s the cool, that’s the, full part.
Mark: Yeah, and I think that depends on how you define expert. If an expert knows everything, then yeah, nobody should be calling themselves an expert. But if an expert is somebody with enough knowledge to know what they don’t know and to be as Karl kind of put it, like continuously curious and willing to fail and admitting to be fallible. Like those are all qualities of an expert. Right? In fact, it’s almost if you don’t have that, if you don’t, if you think you know everything and you don’t, you aren’t willing to fail and you aren’t, you don’t think there’s anything left for you to learn. You’re probably. Don’t. Deserve that. Monica, right?
Justin: Yeah, I was telling someone last week that, you know, I’ve been doing this for a very long time. And all it’s given me compared to somebody else that’s new is I’ve made more mistakes. And so I’ve had an opportunity to learn from those mistakes more And so.
Mark: Than someone else.
Justin: That’s it. All right. And I’ll continue making mistakes because that’s what learning is all about.
Mark: Well, now that you’ve admitted that you make mistakes, I think we’ve done a great job. It’s time to wrap up. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Thanks to all the people who supported our last podcast. Accessibility has been broken down for you. Remember to keep it accessible.
Justin: Thanks you!
Announcer: Thank you for listening to the Accessibility Breakdown by Inclusion Impact Accessibility.
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