Episode Summary
Understanding the Future of Accessibility and AI: Insights from Wilko Fierce and Jonathan Moson
In this episode, we explore groundbreaking perspectives on accessibility standards, AI’s role in assistive technology, and societal implications, with deep dives into Wilko Fierce’s EN 17161 standard and Jonathan Moson’s compelling article on AI and blindness. Whether you’re an industry professional or just curious about next-gen accessibility, this discussion will broaden your understanding of how standards evolve and technology impacts lives.
Design for all, part 1: WCAG isn’t enough
Design for all, part 2: Mind the gaps
Artificial Intelligence, History, and Blindness: Lessons and Musings
Main Topics Covered:
- The limitations of WCAG and the role of EN 17161 as a management standard for accessibility
- The concept of conformance versus compliance in accessibility standards
- How developing standards like EN 17161 and assertions prepare us for the future beyond WCAG
- AI’s transformative potential in assistive tech, especially for visually impaired individuals
- Practical examples of AI aiding independence, including image description, environmental mapping, and accessibility in everyday environments
- The societal and privacy considerations around AI-enabled devices like smart glasses
- Historical parallels with technological shifts: radio vs newspapers, television’s impact on radio, and lessons for AI adoption
- Sci-fi influences shaping our perceptions of AI risks and opportunities, from Skynet to Star Trek’s Data
The importance of balancing innovation with privacy, and the societal integration of assistive AI tools
Transcript
Mark Miller: Hey, welcome to the Accessibility Breakdown. I am Mark, and this is Justin. Every week we pay tribute to those who stand out to us as leading by accessibility by picking three topics that strike us in some way. This week we’re gonna talk about two articles from Wilko. You want to give me pronounce his last name? Justin? Fierce. Fierce. Wilko Fierce. this is a three-part series, and we’re gonna do one and two, and then we’ll pick up three in the next episode.
Justin Stockton: Justin?
Justin Stockton: fears.
Mark Miller: but this is the whole premise of these series is that Wikeg WCAG isn’t quite enough. Like where we’ve reached in accessibility today, we should be looking at Wikeg as sort of a base. And then we should also be looking at something else beyond Wikig. And the suggestion here is a standard that already exists. And I’m maybe misusing the word standard here, but it’s EN 17161.
Mark Miller: so it’s a really, really interesting take on that. And then once we get through those two, so Wick Hake isn’t enough and Mind the Gaps are the two, part one and part two of that. Once we get through that, we’ve got this really, really, really good article by this was like this read like a short story, Justin. It’s a very long article, but it is so well written. And this is one of the most balanced.
Justin Stockton: Mm-hmm.
Mark Miller: Discussions of AI, I think I’ve read. And it’s written by a gentleman who’s blind, Jonathan Moson. and he the being blind is such an integral, but also in a way, such an incidental part of the article. So it’s not like I’m blind, AI, I’m blind, AI. It’s like, here’s a really well-thought-out article about AI. I’m a blind person, so there’s so here’s some perspective on that as well. And it it’s so balanced.
Mark Miller: Across the board, and we’ll talk more about that. that the points that are made land so perfectly, I think. but we’re gonna start with Wilco’s articles, also very w well written, but they’re sort of shorter to the point, divided into these three articles, and they make this four. they’re gonna be total of four? Four articles, yeah. Four articles, okay. So we’re gonna do part one and and then we’ll
Justin Stockton: There’s four articles, yeah.
Mark Miller: Do part three four next time. Yeah. So I misspoke in the beginning. I for some reason thought it was three. How dare you, sir. How dare I know? It’s terrible of me. But so anyways, and if you don’t know Wilco, he’s an incredible mind in accessibility. And every time I hear from Wilco, I hear Wilko, I read something. As a 13 year veteran of accessibility, I’m always like, huh?
Justin Stockton: How dare you,
Mark Miller: I didn’t think of that, right? Like that’s the kind of mind he is. So he’s one he’s one to pay attention to and this series is really, really interesting. So let’s dive in, Justin, to Design for All, name of the series, part one, Wickeg Isn’t enough.
Justin Stockton: Yeah, this was a good one. So in this series, Wilco is introducing everyone who hasn’t known about it before to the EN standard 171671. Yeah, there’s a lot of ones in there.
Mark Miller: Yeah, this was a good one. It’s a h so in this artic in this series artic Wilco is introducing everyone who hasn’t known about it before to the EN standard one seven one six seven one? Yeah. there’s a lot of ones in there. Yeah, it’s yeah, one seven one six one. So seventeen one six one one seven one six, however you want say it. I know I I read it a bunch of times because
Mark Miller: I’ll mess I’ll mess up that many numbers for sure. but what’s cool about this is that it’s a management standard. So similar to like ISO 9001 or some of these other ones, it’s not providing you guidance on like how to make something accessible. Right. But it’s meant to provide that overarching architecture for organizations on how to prov approach
Justin Stockton: Yeah. but what’s cool about this is that it’s a management standard. So similar to like ISO 9001 or some of these other ones, it’s not providing you guidance on like how to make something accessible, but it’s meant to provide that overarching architecture for organizations on how to approach, accessibility for everyone and designing for everyone.
Mark Miller: accessibility for everyone and designing for everyone. Yeah. And I thought that that was the that’s where as I was reading, you know, as you’re reading, you kind of like have these epiphanies along the way and these revelations and like, I get, I get it. And I think that the where Wilco is coming from here is that Wikig is great. It’s been a standard for a long time. It is
Mark Miller: intended to be something that you conform to, right? And I was really pleased that he used the term conformance and not compliance. Compliance means t typically indicates you meet a certain number of criteria like from a hard standpoint. So you’ve got to meet these 10 things check, check, check, check, check. Conformance means here’s a bunch of stuff. It’s not perfect. Try and conform to it. Meet it as close as possible as is is it makes sense for you.
Justin Stockton: Mm-hmm.
Justin Stockton: compliance also usually has legal ramifications as well. You’re complying with some sort of law.
Mark Miller: But having usually has legal rammetages. Those are yeah, that’s kind of a legal complying with some sort of a law. Yeah, com compliance has a so anyways, this conformance the the whole what he talks about here is is that you you have to have something that you can sort of specifically measure against in order to have these he didn’t use the term, but they’re like normative standards. So
Mark Miller: It says like, whatever, you know, it’s it’s gotta be this. You measure it and you go, it’s that, right? So color contrast is probably one of the easiest ones to understand because there’s a ratio there, right? There’s a color contrast ratio guideline. You meet the ratio, you don’t meet the ratio, that’s very binary, right? And
Mark Miller: And that’s a great place to start. And he’s not not not saying like, hey, we don’t need Wik. He’s saying once you’ve done that, there’s still a lot left over that’s you may not have accomplished, largely because you were sort of held to these standards that had to be measured. And in order to create something that has to be measured, that in itself is a natural limitation.
Justin Stockton: Well, and also too, because it’s a management standard, um, you have to provide evidence that you’re adhering to it. And so that’s one of the places he gets into in the second article, um, w which is on mind, the gaps between WCAG, uh, what we know today with two dot two and where WCAG three has kind of promised it’s going to go. Um, when we were at CSUN, one of the things that I got jazzed about
Mark Miller: Well and and also too, because it’s a management standard, you have to provide evidence that you’re adhering to it. And so that’s one of the places he gets into in the second article, which is on mind the gaps between WCAG what we know today with two dot two and where th WCAG three has kind of promised it’s going to go. Right. when we were at C Sun, one of the things that I got jazzed about
Mark Miller: was gonna say, I think you’re talking about the the concept of assertions. Wik three is gonna introduce this concept of assertions, which an assertion is like, Do you have a policy? have you done user testing? So it’s not like does this meet color contrast? It’s like, have you done these things? And you could say, Yes, I have a policy and and I think this is part of one of Wilco’s points here. And that par policy could be junk, right? But you can yes, I’ve got a policy. So that’s kind of the the gap in the assertions, but
Mark Miller: Anyway, sorry, just wanted to explain that the the assertions I think is where you were headed. So please continue. I was heading to assertions. You were talking about you were talking about C Sun. Jazzed at C Sun. I was jazzed at C Sun because I had learned about assertions and tests. I haven’t been following Wikeg3 that as closely as other people have. just things. but the busy a busy professional? Is that why Justin? Busy professional, yeah.
Justin Stockton: Oh yeah, yeah, I was heading to our assertions and that was.
Justin Stockton: I was jazzed to see some because I had learned about assertions and tests. I hadn’t been following WCAG 3 back as closely as other people have. Just things. But the… As a busy professional, yeah. But what I liked about assertions was that it did start to close some of those gaps. It started to provide more of that evidence.
Mark Miller: But what I liked about assertions was that it did start to close some of those gaps. It started to provide more of that evidence for adherence or conformance to a particular test or success criteria. So that really kind of interested me. And I was kind of curious to see where that was going to go. So yeah, I I but I like how he’s layering these different standards on top of each other to really give a much
Justin Stockton: for adherence or conformance to a particular test or, success criteria. So that really kind of interested me. And I was kind of curious to see where that was going to go. so yeah, I, I, but I like how he’s layering these different standards on top of each other to really give a much clearer picture or, like.
Mark Miller: Clearer picture or so like yeah sorry the this is what so I just wanted to break this down for like the lay person. If you’re like, what do you I you know I need to read these articles, I’m not sure what to buy. So this is for a long time in accessibility, we’ve been saying the WCAG gives you a really good baseline, right? If you go from zero to
Mark Miller: To as closely conform it to WCAG as possible, you end up with something that’s pretty darn accessible. But it’s not perfect. So we’ve been saying for a long time, we being the the collective accessibility community, that if you want to go beyond WCG, you’ve got to do user testing. So you can think of this EN17161.
Mark Miller: as a very I was pretty good. I did glance overhead. I I have to cheat. I cannot just say it yet. I have to look at it. in 17161. did I that was subtle, right? the that is sort of us saying user testing that’s formalizing what that really means.
Mark Miller: and I and I don’t mean to narrow that to to just user testing, but it’s kind of that notion. Like if you have student facing educational material and i I think this was an example. I think this was an I’m I’m gonna butcher it, but this was kind of an example. And particularly if you know that there’s a lot of students who have American Sign Language first as their you know, their primary language is American Sign Language.
Mark Miller: You then probably need to test that material and to include and to test that material for the effective inclusion of American Sign Language as one of the ways that that content is expressed. Right? Nowhere in the world of Wikig would you would you get that. But in this sort of case, and that’s the was the other interesting thing about IN17161, I found was that it was it kind of it
Mark Miller: kind of accommodated for that like well what are you doing with this? Like Wikegs like everything follow this and this is like what are you doing with it? Are you showing it to a bunch of people who are ASL first? Are you is it an app for truck drivers who are gonna be on the road? Is it you know gonna serve people with some other type of disability or or not? Consider your audience. Consider your audience and and let’s let’s all let’s let’s bring that into it. So anyways
Justin Stockton: Yeah, consider your audience.
Mark Miller: Super interesting. first one, WCG isn’t enough, second one Mind the Gaps and we’ll get into the other two. But is there anything else? It read these. Is there anything else you want to say before we move beyond Wilco? No, I’m ex I I started to read well, I’ve read all four of them. but that was he just released four this week. but I read three when it came out, and so I’m excited for us to talk about three and four ’cause they kinda get more into some of the meat of of
Justin Stockton: No, I thought-
Justin Stockton: No, ex- I started to re- well I’ve read all four of them, but that was, he just released four this week, but I read three when it came out, so I’m excited for us to talk about three and four, because they kind of get more into some of the meat of,
Mark Miller: So I intentionally didn’t read Beyond Two because I knew we were talking about one and two today. Did you find it difficult, even in this discussion, to sort of stay like this is one and this is two? Yes. Yeah, me too. I was like, if I read three, I’m just gonna be talking about three and not I can’t keep it apart. But that and that’s a testament to it. It’s like very it pre progresses these these four parts based on what I’ve read in one and two. I really think that.
Justin Stockton: Yes.
Mark Miller: the progression is very nice and it is sort of a good landing, right? You read one and you sort of land and you go, okay, I get what’s going on. And then you’re very, very ready to consume too. And it sort of landed as well. And he does a really good job of going like here’s where we’re stopping and here’s what you can expect in the next article. So anyways, I I really am a a a Wilco fan and I am a fan of his writing and I’m a fan of the way
Mark Miller: He is so intentional and careful about how he communicates communicates his thoughts and concepts to the masses. I think I just think he does that. And the only the other thing that I will say, because I had to go look it up, and I have talked about like the EN standards and all these things for a while now, but I did not know what E un stood for. you didn’t know it
Justin Stockton: Yeah. The only, the other thing that I will say, because I had to go look it up and I have talked about like the EN standards and all these things for a while now, but I did not know what E-N stood for.
Mark Miller: I don’t know that I do either. Are you gonna educate me? It’s a European norm. European norm. That’s really good. And it’s always written capital E, lowercase N, right? Capital E, capital N. Yeah. it’s a capital N. I thought it was a lowercase N for some reason. Capital. Okay. Well and I’ll trust the guy without dyslexia on that one. But it’s it’s these set of standards that have been adopted in Europe.
Justin Stockton: It’s a European norm.
Justin Stockton: Capital E, capital N. Yes. Capital. And it’s…
Justin Stockton: But it’s, it’s these set of standards that have been adopted in Europe across European countries. Yeah. So.
Mark Miller: across European country. Okay. European norm. Yeah. yep. So EN three one five four nine which it did not have to look at, that’s the other one that’s really talked about a lot in our industry and that’s the one that matches it it refers to WCG and it’s the one that the European standard for accessibility points to for those of you who go ahead.
Justin Stockton: But EN standards cover other things too, like hard hats. So, which Wilco points out. So yeah, sorry.
Mark Miller: But EN standards cover cover other things too, like hard hats. Mm-hmm. which Wilco points out, yeah. Which Wilco points out. So like if you’re making a hard hat, you would look at the EN whatever, whatever, whatever that is for hard hats. Yeah. Yeah, we’re not gonna introduce that number and mess us both up. We’re not gonna do that. is it’s gonna be hard enough ’cause I’ve got Ian three one five four nine, like that’s burned in. and then the
Justin Stockton: Exactly. Yeah. We’re not going to introduce that number and mess us both up.
Justin Stockton: Mm-hmm.
Mark Miller: So E and seventeen one six one. I gotta burn that one in and keep separate. It’ll take a while. So it’s six seven. Don’t please don’t separate it by once. my gosh, you’re killing me. I teach martial arts to kids. I have an eight year old. Yeah, I teach martial arts to kids and I have I got I had quite enough of six seven. But you know what? We did our thing. I don’t know. I I’m not sure what it was.
Justin Stockton: So it’s six, seven, separated by ones.
Justin Stockton: I have an eight year old.
Mark Miller: back then, but I’m sure that there was something I said over and over again that drove my parents and teachers a little a little baddie. All right, so let’s dive into this article by Jonathan Mosin. And did you did you d I meant to dig into him and he’s American Federation for the Blind. What was his title over there? Do you remember? I didn’t see. I I didn’t look him up that much.
Justin Stockton: Mm-hmm.
Justin Stockton: didn’t see I didn’t look him up that much but I’m I’m I’m definitely gonna look him up because after reading this I want to grab a beer or coffee or something with this guy
Mark Miller: Look him up. Look him up real quick. I think we should include that. And I missed it. I’m definitely gonna look him up because after reading this, I wanna grab a beer or coffee or you said that and I was like, yes. Cause I had a feeling reading through this that I couldn’t quite identify. And then so while we were reading this, the so the article’s very long, right? While we were reading this, I was sort of rereading it. I had skimmed it earlier and then Justin and I sent it to Justin, he hadn’t seen it at all.
Mark Miller: So we’re both we we jumped off of of Teams and we’re reading it. But I keep getting these Teams messages from Justin that are like, my gosh, this is good. It’s so long. I’m not even halfway through yet. Holy moly was that good. You actually use some four letter words, so I’m not gonna Blank, this is a great article. I wanna buy this coffee, this guy coffee and just talk to him. That was the one where I was like, Yeah, that’s how I feel.
Justin Stockton: Holy and Moli are four-letter words.
Justin Stockton: So he is the executive director, Accessibility Excellence, National Federation of the Blind.
Mark Miller: He is the Executive Director, Accessibility Excellence, National Federation of the Blind. Okay. So that’s that’s really the reason why I think that’s important is because it it’s just important to understand the authority that it brings to this article and the fact that he could have lean leaned into I’m blind, I’m blind, I’m blind. But again, like I really just appreciated how this was an article by a person about AI and
Mark Miller: Being blind and he also is losing his hearing, which we’ll talk about in in a minute. Just it seems like age related to me, right? but those were just gentle and somewhat continual, or they would they would they would come in and out of the discussion a little bit, but you didn’t in any way feel like you were banged over the head with any of it, right? With with with anything. And it made it so
Mark Miller: And and it w and it’s a skill, and it’s obviously a skill that Jonathan has honed over the years of being a communicator and a writer. but it just made it all so easy to onboard, in my opinion, if that makes sense, because none of your little defenses were kind of raising up. You were just in it, and it was great. So the name of this article is Artificial Intelligence, History and Blindness, Lessons.
Justin Stockton: Mm-hmm.
Mark Miller: And musings. And I’m gonna tell you right now, it’s it it it’s it’s like a short story. So this is like kick your feet up on the beach and read this one because you’re gonna sink into it, you’re gonna enjoy it, and it’s gonna take you a little bit of time. So Jonathan, as we talked about, is blind, he’s also hard of hearing. One of the interesting things I found is I was this is one of those articles you think about afterwards, and as I was thinking about it, I was like, you know, you hear
Mark Miller: about people who are deaf blind and it’s like this thing, right? But what I was thinking about is I’m like, you know, I never really stopped to think that somebody who’s blind, you know, and maybe they’re relying on their their hearing throughout their life, they’re no more immune to hearing loss in their older as they get older than anybody else. So this one of the kind of hidden undercurrents I found is this idea or this real deep sort of
Mark Miller: understanding I got of how when you’re operating in an environment like the world as somebody with a disability, how that kind of does morph and change throughout your life based on these other things. So, you know, he kinda he was a big music buff. Dude he brought up the Beatles, which won me over. ’cause I’m a huge Beatles fan. And he look like I got into that section where he was talking about music and I’m just like, that’s that’s where I was like, yeah.
Justin Stockton: You
Mark Miller: Cup of coffee, man. Like he started going into the music stuff. I’m like, this is great. and but so the whole discussion though is on AI, and it’s this very balanced discussion that’s like AI’s not good, AI’s not bad. We as a society need to decide how we’re going to
Justin Stockton: Thank
Mark Miller: use it, regulate it, what you know, all those all those kind of things. And the best part, and then I’m gonna stop here for a minute, Justin, because I wanted to hear really like what what drew you in about this article. But the best part about it is he goes through these really interesting points in history when this same phenomenon has occurred over and over and over again and compares AI to these phenomenons as almost a
Justin Stockton: Thank
Mark Miller: a roadmap for how we can think about and and think about how we address these things. But I’m gonna stop ’cause I just talked a lot and I wanna hear what you what really resonated for you in this article.
Mark Miller: A lot. it’s hard, isn’t it? I love so I one of the things that I’ve talked about w when I talk to people about AI, is the h historical significance of AI. and it really has the power to be something on on par with the internet, mobile devices, potentially. Like
Justin Stockton: Um, I love, so one of the things that I’ve talked about when I talked to people about AI, um, is the historical significance of AI. Um, and it really has the power to be something on, on par with the internet, mobile devices, um, potentially like
Justin Stockton: It could also fall flat based on government regulations, whatever we end up doing next, environmental concerns. So they can always be scaled. So, but what I liked about what he was talking about was he was looking at it from how different companies, different things tried to kind of squash new technological advances.
Mark Miller: It can also fall flat based on government regulations, whatever we end up doing next, environmental concerns. So like can always be scaled ally. So but what I liked about what he was talking about was he was looking at it from how different companies, different things try kind of squash new technological advan advances.
Justin Stockton: And he used the concept of like the BBC coming online in the early 1900s. And the newspapers pushed back against the radio and said, they can’t come on after 7pm. We’ve got to be able to get our news out. And so there was like this pushback on how quickly they can get information out. But then there was this big strike.
Mark Miller: And he used the concept of like the BBC coming online in the early 1900s. And the newspapers pushed back against the radio and said they can’t come on after 7 PM. we’ve got to be able to get our news out. And so there’s like this pushback on how quickly they could get information out. But then there was this big strike.
Justin Stockton: And the newspapers went flat and the BBC was the only way people were getting news. And that’s when it took off.
Mark Miller: And the newspapers went flat and the BBC was the only way people were getting news. And that’s when it took off. And then there was no going back, right? Because people were like, I can get news that quickly. And the and the newspapers didn’t go away, they adapted. That’s what I thought was really an interesting point about that. So let me ask you this, Justin. Do you think like, you know, you you you I think you said it, right? This thing keeps happening over and over again, regardless of whether it’s
Justin Stockton: And there was no going back. You weren’t going to put that genie back in the bottle. Yeah.
Justin Stockton: Mm-hmm.
Mark Miller: The BBC coming in with radio and it making ner newspapers nervous, you know, video kills the radio star, he brought that up. And I’m like, that’s like a single we were there, we lived through that. And and that was the first video MTV played. They’re like, we know what’s going on here. Video killed the radio star. And it didn’t. You know, we s we still we still listen to radio for a long time. But is and I think it kind of says this, but do you feel like it’s just fear of the unknown? Like, are we just every time something new comes up like that?
Justin Stockton: Mm-hmm.
Mark Miller: Because we’re human beings, we just are gonna at least in part react with fear. I think so. I think that is I mean, some behavioral scientists could probably talk better about it. Maybe it’s part of our monkey brain that we’re always standoffish about seeing something new. We have to experiment around it, test the edges, before we fully adopt it. But once we do, then we’re all in on it. It becomes a new tool.
Justin Stockton: I think so. think that is, I mean, some behavioral scientists could probably talk better about it. Maybe it’s part of our monkey brain that we’re always standoffish about seeing something new. have to experiment around it, test the edges before we’ve fully adopted. But once we do, then we’re all in on it, it becomes a new tool and off we go.
Mark Miller: And off we go.
Mark Miller: So what do you think about this? Like we’ve got this fear, and when you look at the BBC radio newspaper example, you’ve the fear is the newspapers being afraid of radio wrecking their business, right? It’s pretty pretty binary, pretty straightforward. With AI, there’s there’s a lot of different fears, I think, and there’s
Mark Miller: We’re at least seeing the shots over the bow that maybe it’s gonna happen and that’s people are gonna be replaced by AI from a from a job standpoint. I think the jury’s still a little bit out on on how much of that’s actually going to go on, but whatever, you know, we’re seeing it that’s at least being cited as a reason for layoffs and and so on and so forth. But I think one of the phenomena that we have, and this is what I want to get your take on, Justin, is that I mean, you and I grew up watching Star W Star Trek.
Mark Miller: and Star Wars and The Terminator.
Mark Miller: And we’ve seen both positive and negative, but I think that you know when you people say AI, it’s not uncommon for Skynet to fall out of somebody’s mouth right after, right? So we have this precedent in science fiction of really, really horrible consequences for humanity based on essentially
Mark Miller: This seemed like this feels like what what those science fiction historical turning points would describe, right? This is like Skynet taking over. This feels like the beginning of could be the beginning of that. So I don’t know that in any of the examples that we also had these examples of our fiction really speculating some horrible things prior to this technology coming about. Welcome, Cap.
Justin Stockton: Yeah.
Justin Stockton: Mm.
Mark Miller: so anyways, I just wanted to hear your take on that because I know you’re a sci-fi geek like I am. do you think that that’s like got an extra that that’s kind of making us extra have extra feelings about this? I think so. I think we you know a lot of a lot of us grew up with the Terminator series, Skynet, AI. but like in Star Trek, like AI is it’s positive.
Justin Stockton: yeah, well if you really want, I mean.
Justin Stockton: I think so. Um, I think we, you know, a lot, a lot of us grew up with the Terminator series, Skynet, um, uh, AI. Um, but like in Star Trek, like AI is, it’s built into everything. It’s positive. Like they couldn’t do anything without the computer. Um, especially when you get into like next generation, um, yeah, data, like he was a key.
Mark Miller: It’s built into everything. It’s positive. Yeah. Like they couldn’t do anything without the computer. especially when you get into like next generation. yeah, data. Like he was a key member of the the crew. Yeah. So But there was but they but that was a Yeah, that was an example where they had built in all these successfully built in all of these fail safes, you know. So it could be b both the the
Justin Stockton: member of the, of the crew. So I think that’s where a lot of it comes from.
Mark Miller: Speculative example of what we need to do, along with a fear of like Skynet. You know what my favorite thing about Data was is that he couldn’t use contractions. It there’s no reason for that. Like when you look back on it, you’re like, because Star Trek tries to do like hard science fiction, meaning they try to have some scientific basis for what they do. I’m like, somebody just made up the contract.
Justin Stockton: Mm-hmm.
Justin Stockton: I wonder, did lore get the, have the ability to use contractions data’s brother. Yeah. Yeah. That’s funny.
Mark Miller: Because I wonder, did Lore get the ab have the ability to use contractions? Yeah. Yeah, it was supposed to be an advancement. Yeah. He came in and could could do it. That’s funny. Yeah. So I was like that was almost a miss for me for Star Trek. I’m like, I get it from as an acting choice, but as our sci-fi choice, I was like, use contractions. My co pilot can use contractions, you know. Claude can use contractions. The
Justin Stockton: Thank you.
Justin Stockton: Yeah. The, the other thing that I think is that I liked about this article was that he was using that history as a way to make people not okay with the change that’s coming with AI, but to point out this is all happened before that, this is all going to happen again. Yeah. So.
Mark Miller: The other thing that I think is that I liked about this article was that he was using that history as a way to make people not okay with the change that’s coming with AI, but to point out this has all happened before. And this will all happen again. Another sci-fi reference. This is all gonna happen again. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Do we do we make people look up that reference or do we tell we let off the hook? It’s it’s an Easter egg.
Mark Miller: This has all happened before it all happened again. See if you can figure out where that reference is from. Sorry, Justin, I keep interrupting you. That’s okay. My my house is waking up now and so the dog’s walking upstairs and everything. Yeah. Well and I saw you motion to your family that, you know, I’m on the phone. Like emergency, emergency. You need the red the red light to come on like recording, you know. I do, I need one of those. Yeah.
Justin Stockton: That’s okay. My house is waking up now and so the dogs barking upstairs and everything.
Justin Stockton: the
Justin Stockton: do, I need one of those. but let’s talk a bit more about some of the stuff that he gets into with this article. because what he’s trying to do is he’s trying to make the case that AI is a tool. and good or bad, he, he calls out the environmental issues with it. He calls out the societal issues with it. but he also talks about how as someone who is blind.
Mark Miller: But let’s let’s talk some bit more about some of the stuff that he gets into with this article. because what he’s trying to do is he’s trying to make the case that AI is a tool. and good or bad, he he calls out the environmental issues with it, he calls out the societal things with it. but he also talks about how as someone who is blind, this tool is
Justin Stockton: this tool is providing him capabilities that he did not previously have with other assistive technology.
Mark Miller: providing him capabilities that he did not previously have with other assistive technology. Right. I think he all I mean, he all but says that it’s like just one of the biggest revolutions in his as a blind person in his able ability to access. And he talks a lot about AI being able to describe this was being able to describe an image, which is incredible.
Mark Miller: Right. And what you think of that initially and you’re like, cool, you know, somebody forgets to put alt text on something and you can have the image described to you or you may even dive into like, now on social media when family post pictures you can
Mark Miller: Have AI describe the images to you. But he talks about it, and this is what I’m talking about is like he goes into these stories about how he uses it. And he talks about his wedding. And his first wedding, he told the guests, like, yeah, take pictures. Like, because both he and his wife are blind. And they’re like, take pictures, let we’ll we’ll hang on to them, you know. And he’s like, We’ve and then we had this pile of pictures that we never could do anything with. Right, you know, like like like they kept him, but they
Mark Miller: They didn’t they just sat there. I mean they that happens anyways, right? But at least if you’ve if you have sight, you you know, they they come out every once in a while and you go through and you go, remember when you look like that? How come you did your hair that way for the wedding? Blah blah blah blah blah. but when they I can’t remember what it was. What did they do? They renew their vows or something? They had kind of a second Yeah, they reviewed their n vows, and they ended up having I think in Vegas. Yes, it was in Vegas, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah. And they had two photographers come in t and take the pictures. Yeah.
Justin Stockton: Yeah. they reviewed their vows and they ended up having, I think in Vegas is what it said. Yeah. And they had two photographers come in and take the pictures so that they could have them described.
Mark Miller: So that they can have them described. Yeah. And they and I again, this is a moment where as a person with sight, I really felt like I was ushered so gently and cleanly into the into what it’s like to be blind. Because, you know, I through my ignorance, I kind of was like, well, you can describe, you know, your family members. It’s not the same as seeing them though, but they that’s kind of nice. They can they can participate in the you what I mean? I had like kind of like, But the way
Mark Miller: The way that Jonathan described it, it made me really realize, no, this the a person who’s blind, this is how they take in the world is through this audio content. So having their family described in a photo it probably feels just as good to them as looking at a picture of the family does to somebody with sight. And so it really was nice getting that perspective. And it made you feel really good that Jonathan and
Mark Miller: other folks who are blind now have AI to describe and how important, you know. And it also made me wonder, like, from a decorative image standpoint, you know? So if you’re you know, you can mark an image decorative because it’s meant to just look good. If it’s like there’s more that we need to think about there. If you need to really think about your decorative image and go, Well, is it truly decorative? Or is there something illustrative in here that really would be valuable to a blind person? Just a just a side thought. I don’t
Justin Stockton: Mm-hmm.
Mark Miller: know that we need to change the world that way right now, but it made me think about like what is decorative, you know? Well that’s one of those cool things that’s, you know, when Jaws introduced some of the AI capabilities, and like be my eyes and some of these things that are more visual. Yeah. Be my eyes does a great job with all that. Yeah, you know I have this opportunity to when to l to actually look at the page and have it describe and pick up those decorative images.
Justin Stockton: Yeah. Well, that’s one of those cool things that’s, you know, when JAWS introduced some of the AI capabilities, and like Be My Eyes and some of these things that are more visual. Like you now have, yeah, you now have this opportunity to, when, to, to actually look at the page and have it describe and pick up those decorative images and see how they’re actually being decorative and they’re adding to the page.
Mark Miller: and see how they’re actually being decorative and they’re adding to the page. the other the other really cool thing that he did, and again, I wouldn’t have even a thought of this, but you know, necessity being the mother of invention, boy, I wish I could remember the details of the stories better, there were so many of them. But he was traveling somewhere and he told AI to go out and gather was he traveling or was he
Justin Stockton: So that’s really cool.
Justin Stockton: He was moving. He was moving into a new, buying into a house.
Mark Miller: He was moving. He was moving. was buying house. That’s moving into a new buying into a house. Yeah. And he told AI to go out and find all these pictures of this house the house, I think of the surrounding area, all that stuff, and had him sort of had A AI describe like a mental map so he could create a mental map of the house and the area and all of that stuff. And I just thought, how brilliant. And like if you’re going to a conference
Mark Miller: Having AI be able to describe the hotel, the conference area, all that kind of stuff. I would imagine if you’re navigating with a cane or a dog and just already in your head knowing like, if I I just walked into the lobby area and I know the session rooms are to the left and you can make a left, like you’re just so much further.
Justin Stockton: Mm-hmm.
Mark Miller: ahead with everything and I just think that like that was a small example and it was a really cool way to use AI. but the implications I was like are huge for this, right? Well it’s it it’s all it’s independent adds additional layers of independence of dependence. Independence, yeah. yeah the opposite of dependence. That’s why we put the in front of But yeah, what’s that like conferences have people that will show you around.
Justin Stockton: Yeah. Well, it’s, it’s all it’s independent. Adds additional layer of independence. yeah, the opposite of dependence. But yeah, what’s like conferences have people that will show you around and help you like, you know, understand where the floor is and they’ll walk you through and everything. But now through AI and vision tools.
Mark Miller: and help you like you know understand where the floor is and they’ll walk you through and everything. But now through AI and vision tools, you don’t need those people. You don’t have to go up and ask for that sort of thing. so like what he was talking about, he was saying like you know a lot of older adults when they start to lose their sight be don’t be necessarily become screen reader users because it has something else to learn. They may not have the time.
Justin Stockton: You don’t need those people. You don’t have to go up and ask for that sort of thing. so like what he was talking about, he was saying like, you know, lot of older adults, when they start to lose their site, they don’t necessarily become screen reader users because it’s something else to learn. They may not have the time, but if you could rely on AI to bridge that gap, then
Mark Miller: But if you could rely on AI to pr bridge that gap, then you now you’re losing your sight, but you still get to keep your independence. You don’t have to learn some of those tools like the ability to go up and ask to be shown around for things. Or how am I going to drive a car? Because we’re gonna have self-driving cars. Like there’s AI is gonna bring a lot of benefits to those that need that additional
Justin Stockton: you now you’re losing your sight, you still get to keep your independence. You don’t have to learn some of those tools, like the ability to go up and ask to be shown around for things, or how am going to drive a car because we’re going to have self-driving cars. there’s AI is going to bring a lot of benefits to those that need that additional help with sight or, or hearing.
Mark Miller: help with sight or or hearing. So we need we need to wrap up soon, but there’s one last thing I wanted to bring into this and and we can’t even read the article because we can’t even touch upon all the all these concepts that Jonathan brought up. But the other one that I found really interesting and I think it’s a good counter to or not counter but addition to everything that we’re talking about here is he talks about metaglasses and how useful those are to somebody who’s blind because in real time like
Mark Miller: If you’re blind, you can now walk into a a crowded room and be like, with your meta glasses or or whatever smart glasses, you can be like, Who’s in the room? And blind a couple of things I’ve just in hanging out with blind people like that’s one of the things that people with sight take for granted is that they can look across the room and I can be like, there’s Justin. He’s here.
Mark Miller: You know, where if you’re blind, you l it’s literally a arduo more arduous process of somebody having to introduce themselves or a friend having to say, Justin’s here. You don’t get that sort of instantaneous, I can scan the room and know who’s around. But with something like smart glasses, you do. You also can have real-time descriptions, like we’re talking about, of the environment with those smart glasses. On your face with your persp you know, perspective and all that kind of stuff, your your your specific surroundings. So it’s huge.
Mark Miller: However, and this is a real story, he ran into a store that was like, stay out of here with your smart glasses. Because there’s a fear around them based on privacy issues, which there’s probably some are it, you know, it’s valid to a degree. Like, do you want to be in your you know, the changing room of your of your gym and have people wearing metaglasses that can record, you know? Of course not, right? Like there’s so
Mark Miller: His point being we need to be very careful about how we legislate and we need to think about these privacy laws, but we also don’t want to take something that’s incredibly useful for somebody like him who’s blind and just sort of blanketly be like, you know, I don’t like these things because they violate privacy. So keep him out of my store because now he’s not gonna go in your store. If you’re not gonna allow him to use that technology that that it creates an equivalency, he’s not gonna go in your store.
Mark Miller: And so I just thought that that was another in the sort of this is the things we need to think about as kind of how this article goes. I thought that that was a fantastic Yeah. I cause I absolutely the first time I saw a pair of metaglasses, they were on a friend of ours who is blind and he was using them in much the same way that Jonathan talks about. And my initial response was the privacy implications. Like I don’t want to be recorded.
Justin Stockton: Yeah, because I absolutely had the first time I saw a of glasses. they were on a friend of ours, who was blind and he was using them in much the same way that Jonathan talks about. And, my initial response was the privacy implications. Like, I don’t want to be recorded. I don’t know where that data is going, especially because. Yeah. so we may end up, you know, maybe it’s like, service dogs, like, you know, no, you know,
Mark Miller: I don’t know where that data’s going. Yeah. So you’ve got to have a balance. Yeah. so we may end up, you know, maybe it’s like service dogs. Like, you know, no at you know, no pets allowed, service dogs welcome, you know. Something like that, yeah. Something like that. But it’s gotta be part of the conversation, or exactly it’s gonna be shut out. I think was was was the point. And that w the way I just said that was probably like harsher than the way he presents anything in this article. Like I said, it was just so
Justin Stockton: No pets allowed, service dogs welcome, you know, no.
Justin Stockton: Exactly.
Mark Miller: Perfectly toned. Anyways, thank you, Jonathan. Wonderful article. Really appreciate it. talking about leading by accessibility. This is just both Wilco and Jonathan. I just thought were were great pieces of content. we do have to wrap up though. Any last thoughts from you, Justin? No. That was it was a good set of articles this week. Very much. Well.
Justin Stockton: No, that was a good set of articles this week.
Mark Miller: Now that we have broken down accessibility for you, we hope you go forth and keep it accessible.
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