Episode 17 – AI, federal regulations, sign language tools, and Hyperblam

Episode Summary

Mark Miller is joined by Justin Stockton and guest Steve Faulkner for a wide-ranging conversation that touches on AI-assisted legal research, sign language translation technology, and a browser-based music tool built with accessibility in mind. The discussion is part analysis, part industry reflection, with each speaker bringing a distinct perspective shaped by years of accessibility work. We discuss how AI can help surface disability-related changes in U.S. federal regulations, why local knowledge still matters when evaluating AI output, and what it means to build creative tools on the web without losing accessibility. The episode also explores the limits of expertise, the value of lived experience, and why large companies may be the ones able to tackle certain accessibility challenges at scale.

This week’s guest: Steve Faulkner

AI Reviews Changes in Federal Regulations

Ken Nakata 

Putting sign language AI into users’ hands

Google DeepMind Sign Language Team.

Hyperblam

Hayden Bickering

Main Topics:

• Stephen Cutchins shares how he came to serve as Director of Accessibility at Cvent after more than 20 years in the field
• The group breaks down a Live Nation enforcement action in the UK tied to inaccessible festivals, missing toilets, weak captions, and lost attendance
• They discuss the 66 million pounds in annual ticket revenue the UK music industry is estimated to miss through inaccessible ticketing
• Justin describes real-world access barriers like keycard-only elevators and why small details can block entry
• The conversation emphasizes that accessible registration, marketing, physical space, and wayfinding all need to work together
• They explore how trust grows when events ask the right registration questions and visibly include disabled attendees in their imagery and outreach
• Stephen explains how a prior Reading Festival success story once drove a 286 percent increase in revenue from disabled attendees, then later backslid when accessibility stopped being maintained
• Mark and Justin stress that accessibility has to be baked into policy and process, not left to one passionate champion
• The final article shifts to gaming and the burnout behind disability reporting, with the group reflecting on how accessibility coverage itself can fade when the industry stops prioritizing it
• The episode closes with a reminder that accessibility improvements often benefit everyone, not just disabled attendees

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Transcript

Mark Miller (00:06)
Hey, welcome to the Accessibility Breakdown. I am Mark, and this is And here we’ll

Justin Stockton (00:10)
Justin?

Steve Faulkner (00:10)
Steve sorry Steinfogner is here as well.

Mark Miller (00:15)
we’ll we’ll we’ll go again. And this is. And

Justin Stockton (00:18)
Justin.

Mark Miller (00:20)
this is.

Steve Faulkner (00:21)
Sleep.

Mark Miller (00:22)
Look at that, we did it. Every week we pay tribute to those who stand out to us as leading by accessibility by picking three topics that strike us in some way. This week we’re gonna talk about.

AI reviews, changes, and federal regulations. this is a big article, really interesting and really interesting use of AI. This is by Ken Nakata. so we’ll dive into that. And then one that’s really close to my heart here is putting sign language AI into users’ hands. This is an article, something that DeepMind Sign Language team from Google is

working on and then we’re gonna talk about a product out there or a service out there called Hyperblam. so as you all have noticed we have a guest with us again this episode. Welcome to the show, Steve.

Steve Faulkner (01:19)
Thank you very much.

I’m excited to be here.

Mark Miller (01:22)
Yeah, well thanks. in you know, before them the mics heated up here, we were all chatting because we’ve all sort of crossed paths in multiple ways. Steve and Justin and I for a long time worked at TPGI together. We’ve s

Steve Faulkner (01:35)
Some say too long.

Mark Miller (01:37)
some Steve has stolen what I would call French fries, what he would call chips from me at CSUN

while while having a beer and I think that if we go on long enough, you’ll learn all about Justin highly offending Steve by calling him by c

Steve Faulkner (01:57)
No, I’m not gonna mention that I’ve

Mark Miller (01:59)
I’m well but I’m gonna mention it. Steve Justin told Steve he looked old. So we all go I’m excited. We’re we’re

Steve Faulkner (02:07)
I am also.

Mark Miller (02:08)
joking around, but I’m excited ’cause we all go way back. I mean, we really have

Steve Faulkner (02:12)
Yeah, we’ve had we’ve we’ve got a long history of of yes. We all used to work

Mark Miller (02:16)
Yeah and

Steve Faulkner (02:17)
at the same place together for years, I don’t know. I mean I worked there for I worked at Vespero now, what it’s called, but I’ve worked there for almost eighteen years. So

Mark Miller (02:27)
Wow, that’s I so I was there for probably if you look at the the TPG Vespero time, I

Steve Faulkner (02:33)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (02:33)
think I was I was I was about eight of those the last eight years you were there. I was well, I was there longer than you. But anyway, so yeah, good good

Steve Faulkner (02:41)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (02:42)
w so we probably crossed over for about five years and Justin’s staying quiet ’cause he doesn’t want to offend you again like like you did with that.

Steve Faulkner (02:51)
How long were you there for, Justin?

Justin Stockton (02:54)
almost nine years. They cut me a month short of my ninth year.

Mark Miller (02:59)
Yeah. That was something it’s a thirteen year run if you count interactive accessibility for me, but I think eight or nine of those were

Steve Faulkner (03:08)
the the

w w they they’ve set you both free to actually do better work ’cause you were contained. So I I’m happy for you both.

Mark Miller (03:17)
I’ll I’ll take that. That sounds exactly like what happened, Steve. Thank you. Well listen, we’ve got these three these three articles to talk about and I’m excited because it is a little bit of bringing the band back together and I’ll say that you know, we really appreciate I really appreciate you you Steve because of your dedication to accessibility. It’s I know that this is

And in in in everybody we’ve had on as guests, I would say the same thing about, but you’ve had a really long career. You’ve spent a lot of time shaping the way that we do things and think about things and all that. So I really am excited to get your take on a lot of these articles. so let’s start with your

Steve Faulkner (04:03)
You’ll be on the world, but

Mark Miller (04:06)
excuse like

Steve Faulkner (04:07)
Mm.

Mark Miller (04:08)
AI AI let’s start let’s start with the AI reviews changes in federal regulations. This was a really deep article, and I have to admit I had a bit of a morning and my ability to really dive into this article probably was a little bit limited. And it was a it was a thinker. So does do either one of you feel like you have a real good take on this?

Steve Faulkner (04:32)
Justin.

Mark Miller (04:34)
Steve goes Justin.

So Justin, you wanna set this one up for us? It’s v extremely interesting. And it’s extremely interesting that it’s sort of an admitted he written by AI, or at least part of it is. and that’s

Justin Stockton (04:50)
Of it.

Mark Miller (04:50)
kind of partly what the article’s about is AI’s the way AI broke down this particular subject. I’m gonna leave it there and and why don’t you take over, Justin, and really frame this one out for us. Lucky you.

Justin Stockton (05:00)
Yeah. So this article

can so in this article Ken Nakata was talking was sounds like he’s really kind of starting to dip his toe into what Claude can do and was trying to see if he could get Claude Code to go in and check out the federal registrar for places where disability has been used or has been referenced in in in articles and in changes.

within the federal registrar. And so yeah.

Steve Faulkner (05:32)
Qu question for you, Justin. Ken Nakata?

Justin Stockton (05:41)
So Ken Nakata is a lawyer and has written a a number of articles and we actually talked about one a couple of sessions ago. but kind of in the same kind of in a sim similar realm as like Laney.

Steve Faulkner (05:59)
yeah.

Justin Stockton (05:59)
really talking about accessibility, looking at accessibility. He’s done a lot here, particularly in the United States, at looking at how different states are approaching accessibility.

and so this isn’t the first time that we’ve referenced his work.

Steve Faulkner (06:17)
Yes, because I I was just gonna say to you both that that the I the the article sounds like it’s it’s specific to various aspects of of American law and I’m not that well versed in a in American law so to speak, so I don’t know how much I I will you know perspective I’ll be able to give, that’s all.

Justin Stockton (06:40)
So there’s I think there’s two as there’s two

Mark Miller (06:41)
I think you’ll be able to, yeah.

Justin Stockton (06:42)
yeah, there’s two interesting aspects to this. One is the actual article of itself, the information that Ken was able to pull out of the Federal Registrar with Claude, but then he took the he took the results of that and he basically said, Hey Claude, write this blog article for me. And Claude then went

Steve Faulkner (07:04)
Yeah.

Justin Stockton (07:05)
through and he attributes it so technically

We need to attribute this to both Ken Nakata and Claude, I guess. but which he does and he

Mark Miller (07:10)
Mm-hmm. Which he does in the article very sort of interestingly.

Justin Stockton (07:14)
is very clear, very upfront about

Steve Faulkner (07:17)
So d w

did he do this to as e what I mean, what was his motivation for using AI to write the article? Do you know? Is that is that apparent?

Justin Stockton (07:28)
his it was really just to see if he could if what it would do, and how it would summarize the article in a blog format. But

Mark Miller (07:36)
Yeah, I think Steve,

the part of the interesting thing about this is that like it was going through the Federal Re Registry and really being able to parse out all of the data around accessibility and disability within the Federal Registry and filter it, organize it, and understand the challenges. Like it starts off talking about the tags.

In

sort

Steve Faulkner (08:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Miller (08:05)
of the words that we that you would latch on to if you were looking for articles. And in a lot of it, like you know, like Title II was extended, HHS was extended. Like so a lot of it, a lot of it was to kind of understand the all the things that influence that and led up to that and address that. But so for me, I’ll just jump in for me, Steve. One of the interesting things is is like, you know how the three of us probably

When we use the word accessibility, to us it has like this deep meaning, you know. It’s all it it

Steve Faulkner (08:39)
What?

Mark Miller (08:40)
it has to do with all the the work we do and and and it has to do with creating

Steve Faulkner (08:43)
Yeah, yeah.

Mark Miller (08:44)
environments that that don’t disable people and all this kind of stuff. But sometimes accessibility means that a hu somebody can just has access to something, right? Like there’s this

Steve Faulkner (08:53)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (08:54)
and so when you’re talking to a lay person inside of the industry, my brain kind of short circuits a little bit and goes, like, how is this word being used?

And Claude kind of like discloses this, like how difficult it is sometimes to pull the to to pull these things apart and find this different information because something like the word accessibility may be used in a much more common way. Or the

Steve Faulkner (09:21)
Yeah. Yeah. I

Mark Miller (09:23)
word disability or inability or and I’m I’m making up words at this point, but he had a list of them, are

Steve Faulkner (09:30)
No, they’re all

real words, don’t worry, Mark.

Mark Miller (09:30)
Or or are common

as well as specific, so it had to

Steve Faulkner (09:34)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (09:34)
go through and unders really understand the articles in a much more complex way to pull things apart. And I’ll I’ll pause there, Justin, ’cause I knew you were in the middle of it, but go ahead, Steve. Go ahead, Steve.

Steve Faulkner (09:42)
Yeah but yeah I was just gonna

say I mean it’s an interesting the the what accessory means to different peop people or different ways it’s used because

Mark Miller (09:54)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Faulkner (09:56)
there’s there’s a well there’s two you know there’s two sort of trains of of of thought that that or two trains of of I don’t know two trains let’s say one train

Mark Miller (10:12)
Two

trains, one heading north, one heading east at thirty five miles an hour. Got it. Okay, what’s the what’s the rest of the math problem?

Steve Faulkner (10:12)
One sh Yeah. Yeah. No, no, but one one one

view is that accessibility is it can mean, you know, f things for for for it just means that, you know, it doesn’t have to be a in related disability. So, you know, people say, you know, make it accessible because everybody, you know, needs needs needs it.

And then there’s the other one which I I I’ve always firmly b you know, I’m of the view that the accessibility that I do and that part of the reason why I do it is because it’s for accessibility means making things work for people with disabilities. If it if it’s not about that, it’s not accessibility to me, you know what I mean?

But that is a it’s it’s a conflict that you’ll see, you know you know, you’ll see the that that comes up, you know. Accessibility means you know, this but really it it means this, but you know, you all those other things like usability and things like that are are couched around them, but for me the bottom line is accessibility is improving the user experience for people with disabilities.

Mark Miller (11:37)
Yeah, and and so that, Steve, really lays out I think the the interesting exercise that was done here with

Steve Faulkner (11:44)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (11:44)
You know, Claude has to go through and go like how how do we go beyond that word and really figure out in all of this federal registry writing and documentation, how do we how do we go beyond that to pull out the meaningful things when we’re looking for

When we’re looking for the regulations and and everything, the emails, all of it related to disability and disability regulation, as the three of us would would would think about it. Justin, what else what else we kind of we kind of latched onto a point halfway through your explanation, which is good. Yeah.

Justin Stockton (12:25)
No, it’s all right. No, it’s a good it’s

Steve Faulkner (12:25)
Sorry,

Justin Stockton (12:27)
it’s it’s a really good point. But what Ken was trying to do is he’s trying to set something up that would allow him to monitor the Federal Registrar to see if there have been changes that he should be aware of. there are things going on in the United States th where things are being kind of done and not and are having to be broadcast into the Federal Registrar the way that they’re legally required to do.

But they’re doing trying to do things kind of a little bit under the covers, so to speak. Yeah, I know. It’s shocking.

Mark Miller (13:00)
Guys, just shockers see.

Justin Stockton (13:02)
I know.

Steve Faulkner (13:02)
Yeah.

Justin Stockton (13:03)
And so h what he’s done here is he’s he’s he’s essentially and he included he includes the information in here. He b basically built a skill for Claude on how hey Claude, this is how I want as a lawyer, this is how I would approach s going through and analyzing

the federal registrar looking at an article, looking at it through different stages to determine does this particular post to the to the registrar does it have does it have anything to do with disability or any of these disability related laws? And he lists a whole bunch of disability laws. And so he wanted it to go back ninety days, try to find some things and see what it would come up and come up with. And

And then have Claude summarize it. And I think what was really interesting about this was that he was able to get one, he was able to get Claude to to to kind of comb through the data to find things that he knew was were there enough that he was like, well, let’s go ahead and have Claude take this to the next level and write the pup the post. But it also found some things that he wasn’t aware of that gave him some some some signs that maybe there’s an another wave that’s kind of blowing underneath.

his intentional area of looking at disabilities, he’s also seeing things related to Title Six, where multiple agencies are changing some of their language. that would affect Title

Steve Faulkner (14:36)
Right.

Justin Stockton (14:36)
Six as well. So

Mark Miller (14:38)
So this Yeah,

Steve Faulkner (14:38)
A question when you’re ready, when you

Justin Stockton (14:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Miller (14:41)
I was just gonna say this is where it gets interesting, Steve, is that everything that we said about accessibility, like take that and and and and flip the script, right? And what what Justin’s going into here is that the regulation that is coming in and affecting these or or the things that are coming in and affecting these regulations are using what what Ken calls

Ordinary, I think ordinary language or common language. I’m I’m trying to look at the thing. ordinary language, so that it is becomes very difficult to find. That’s that’s how it’s staying under

the covers. Where

Steve Faulkner (15:21)
Go sure, got sure.

Mark Miller (15:22)
and so this Claude skill is able to parse through the ordinary language.

Steve Faulkner (15:32)
So that’s why I’ve got the question about just a practical question. is that you you talk about this skill that he’s written. Is that skill is that skill available? Like has he written a you know, a doc because it’s use yeah. I mean I I would

Justin Stockton (15:47)
Yeah. There’s so there’s a zip file.

Steve Faulkner (15:50)
t tend to think in practical terms about these things.

Justin Stockton (15:54)
Yeah, no, there’s a zip file

that contains the markdown file. Now he didn’t he didn’t package it as an actual clawed skill. It’s more of a prompt, but

Steve Faulkner (16:01)
Not like yeah.

Justin Stockton (16:04)
it would not take much to turn it into a skill.

Steve Faulkner (16:06)
I d I I don’t know how that that I mean I’ve star just started using Claw before we use well I was using Chap GPT but I d I don’t tend to use it to to parse you know information that I have a some understanding of ’cause I find that that it tends not to be helpful in that way. What I do use it for is to b to build to code stuff that I’m having the hope in hell.

I I mean, anything more complex than than a three line JavaScript has always been a problem for me. So I have been using it successfully to do stuff.

Justin Stockton (16:46)
Yeah. What’s cool about this though is that, you know, we always talk about the man in the middle when we’re using AI. And if I was to if if I was interested in this and I was to go out and create something very similar to what or try to do something very similar to what Ken did, then I wouldn’t know necessarily whether the response that I got back from Claude was right or wrong. Ken

Steve Faulkner (17:09)
Yeah.

Justin Stockton (17:09)
has the domain knowledge to be able to look at this and go, yes, this is right.

And and he knows how to follow up on all that information and dial in

Steve Faulkner (17:18)
Yeah.

Justin Stockton (17:18)
the skill. He talks a little bit about that as well. But

Steve Faulkner (17:22)
You’re touching

touching very much on the core of the issue with AI is that for me anyway, is that if you if you have the expertise to to know whether it’s right or wrong, then you probably then you you probably don’t need it so much. But lots of people that don’t have that expertise use it and they have no way to judge the the veracity of of the output.

Justin Stockton (17:50)
Yeah.

Steve Faulkner (17:50)
Yeah.

Well yeah.

Exactly, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I’ll have to read it again and the and ’cause I did skim it.

Yeah, but no, no yeah. Well well you w what you’ve done is you you just raised well, you’ve raised the awareness that it’s there and hopefully other people that can actually that have the time and the skills to be able to read it. you know. But what what I would like to say at this point in in regards to AI, I don’t my personal view is not intelligent, it’s just another tool, it’s highly sophisticated and and

It’s akin to magic in some ways, but anything that we don’t fully understand is akin to magic. But I don’t think you know, that’s my my view. So I don’t think it’s sentient and I’ve really been trying to to not anthropomorphosize the AI because it it’s it’s not U or I, you know. It’s not a human, it’s not even a dog. It’s just a bunny piece of sorry. It’s just a piece of software.

That and a tool that we can use as a sophisticated tool, but we le you know need to learn the parameters of how to use it.

Justin Stockton (19:51)
Exactly.

the one thing that r I mean Mark I think Mark some summed up my kind of awness of what they’re doing here. some of the cool things like this all happens on the device. so it doesn’t it doesn’t have to go out to the cloud, it doesn’t have to do other things. It it ha all happens on the device, which is pretty amazing. it also is built into everything. So if you are they show a little example in the in the article of like

If you’re texting if you are deaf and you are texting with someone that you can bring up your camera and you can sign to that and it will translate and send it as a text. So which may

Steve Faulkner (20:32)
Almost.

Justin Stockton (20:33)
be faster for you than typing, you know, on a Cordy keyboard. so that the fact that it’s built into everything within the operating system is pretty cool. and it it’s gonna make it a lot more useful.

than having to go out and use a specialty app in order to you know to gain access to this one

Steve Faulkner (20:55)
Yeah.

Justin Stockton (20:56)
feature.

Steve Faulkner (20:56)
So so question the w what what you’re describing it sounds like so it runs a LM or a large language one on on the locally. So rather than that’s cool. I mean I I always think that is pr a preferable thing to to having, you know, in the cloud. The other thing I was when Mark was talking about about this, I I will carry it I will

pref preface what I’m gonna say by saying I I like obviously I’m aware of people that sign language but it is not my area of expertise at all. And so yeah, I don’t know a huge amount about it. I mean if you want to talk about accessible APIs and in the browser, I I can talk to that. But I I don’t really know a lot about like you know other than the the the Waco related things. But if

One of the the the wonderful things well one of the things about accessibility is that w when people talk about accessibility or accessibility experts so to speak, it’s like you’ve gotta be it’s as if you’ve you’re a access v expert across every a every aspect of accessibility. And B and you we all know that well and and other people sh you know should know that

It is it is a very it’s you know, a wide ranging area of subject matter, you know, and so like it’s like in the so a lot of specialization involved in it. So it’s not like but, you know

What am I trying say? What I’m trying to say is is if I don’t know something about I will just I will say it up front that I don’t know rather than trying to you know bamboozle my way into think making people think that I understand it. That’s all. But what sorry, I am I cut me out whenever you’re not like Mark. but

Mark Miller (23:00)
We’re not gonna do that.

Steve Faulkner (23:03)
one of the things I was thinking about and so you know

I always sort of try to bring it back to something that I understand and what you were talking about the American Sign Language and how you’re essentially saying that people that speak, you know, native speakers and non native speakers, you can tell a non native speaker, but it’s the same as or similar to to, you know, the verbal languages. Like somebody who’s from Spain, you know, like my wife

can can listen to somebody else and know that they’re not from Spain or or the way that they use language, especially people, you know, sort of English people that that have learned span Spanish. You can just tell, but and I’m sure it’s the same, is by the same token for for people with that that understand sign language. The other question I have, which you may be able to answer, is that

You talk about American Sign Language, what are the differences between and say there’s BSL over here, I think, British Sign Language, and there’s Australian

Mark Miller (24:04)
Yeah. Yep.

Steve Faulkner (24:05)
Sign Language. Are there major differences between the the and can they understand each other?

Mark Miller (24:13)
So that’s it’s a good question and I don’t know that I can answer that fully, Steve, but the

Steve Faulkner (24:19)
That’s fun.

Mark Miller (24:20)
the the answer is is they’re different languages, right? Just like

Steve Faulkner (24:23)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (24:24)
just like Spanish and English are different.

Steve Faulkner (24:27)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (24:28)
And so with the can they understand each other? You know, I think that w speculating I think that that would that would depend. And what I don’t know is I don’t know

what the similarities are between like BSL and ASL, for example. So for so s you know, when it when it comes to spoken languages, like from an English standpoint, you know, you’re you’re from Australia, right? You’re living in London, we’re in the US, we you we sound funny to you, you sound funny to us, but we all understand each other, right?

I don’t know if that’s kind of the same experience. Like if a person who learned ASL went to London for the first time and started signing with somebody with BSL, if there’s enough in common for them to work. Yeah. Well

Steve Faulkner (25:08)
it’s an interesting topic to ask people though, isn’t it? I mean, next time I encounter someone.

Mark Miller (25:13)
Yeah, well I can w we actually have somebody that w works with us that is this deaf that’s just sign language cour Courtney Gannon and and Justin’s gonna see her later today. Yeah, yeah. So it’s a question we could ask.

Justin Stockton (25:22)
I’m having coffee with her in like forty five minutes, I’ll ask her.

Steve Faulkner (25:26)
Yeah. D

Mark Miller (25:26)
But I’ll I’ll tell you

that my suspicion is it’s probably not quite the same. And one of the things is is particularly when I was learning American Sign Language, is there’s the regionalization is very strong. Meaning that and this is before the internet was as prevalent as is is now. This was early 90s, right? So so people in like towns or or or small areas would develop would start to use

signs that only they used. So even across the U US the regionalization like a

Steve Faulkner (25:58)
So it’s like yeah, local dialects and things, yeah.

Mark Miller (26:01)
loc like a local dialect, and I know that

it even more so than I think the something spoken. But so it’s a good question and and maybe if if anybody who’s who’s deaf or or any of the interpreters out there, anybody who knows more than we do, you know, feel free to to to shoot us a note and and tell us if you know the answer. but one thing I will say, so a couple things I’ll say around this. One is that

That it should be noted in this conversation that we do not have representation of somebody who is who’s deaf in ASL first. And they may have some very different takes on this technology than we do, both positive and negative. So just just just kind of note that that we’re none of

Steve Faulkner (26:43)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (26:45)
none of us have a li a true lived experience to really comment on the value of this.

Steve Faulkner (26:48)
Yeah, this is just our perspective based upon

you know yeah.

Mark Miller (26:51)
Yeah, based on our

experience. and the other thing is though that for me, one of the things that I find interesting is like, you know, sometimes we can think negatively about these large organizations, right? whether it be some of the the people that are are large accessibility organizations or or or corporations of any kind, right? The really one of the interesting things to me here is I think it takes somebody big, like Google, to tackle this.

‘Cause it’s not easy. And I also think that it’s like that Google like you know, take my hat off to them that this is something that’s obviously has a high level of priority within Google to do because it’s quite an effort.

Steve Faulkner (27:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Mark Miller (27:38)
And

so I really I really appreciate the fact that they’re doing it because I think that it would be hard for and I could totally be wrong about this, but I think if a startup could do this easily, they would have done it. It almost takes the power of somebody like Google to get in there and really dive in on something like this. And I just appreciate the fact that they’re doing it, you know.

Steve Faulkner (27:56)
Yeah, the I mean a large you know, it it

may take a large educational institution or group of educ you know, it’s that’s the sort of research that

that could or

Mark Miller (28:07)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Faulkner (28:07)
or sort of development that can be done by non non capitalist, you know, sort of aspects. Not that the

Mark Miller (28:15)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Faulkner (28:16)
you know, I’m anti capitalist but one of the things about, you know, saying that that Google, yeah.

They’re doing it and there’s the and I’m sure that that there’s they’ve got an underpinning or a r a motivation that’s may well be outruistic in some aspects for the good of humanity, but also it’s about the bottom line of you know, they they’re gonna make money out of it somehow. They’re they’re you know, they it’s always and understandably they’re a for profit company. They need to they need to

Mark Miller (28:47)
Yeah, they should make money.

Steve Faulkner (28:49)
do that. D I can I just mention something which is

somewhat unrelated, but I was reading about how Meta have are gonna give like fifteen thousand pairs of glasses t to

Mark Miller (29:07)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Faulkner (29:08)
every blind person in in a in Ireland. And did you? Well th there you go. Well no, I

Mark Miller (29:11)
Yeah, we talked about that last episode, yeah. Yeah. Well go for it. Go for it though. Say what you’re gonna say.

Steve Faulkner (29:17)
just I was just thinking about the yes, it’s a very

altruistic on the on the but also though you know the the marketing of those things or the the perception is poor. S you know, boo people call them perv glasses and things like that. So I imagine that it’s a part of their marketing and PR effort, you know, is is partially moti motivates them to give

Mark Miller (29:42)
Sure.

Steve Faulkner (29:43)
these things. But also the thing is ’cause Nick Steenhout, who is that how you pronounce his name?

Mark Miller (29:50)
Yep. Yep.

Steve Faulkner (29:51)
Yeah.

He wrote an article about that while I was reading the other day. That’s how it sort of and it’s really it’s it’s it’s a really good article. I really enjoyed it, but it’s also, you know, questioning the motivations and and how that yes they’re empowering people that with disabilities, but they’re also they’re also, you know, using them as cheap labour in a way. Why because

Mark Miller (30:16)
Yeah. So Justin,

this is a great moment, I think. and I’m gonna this is gonna not make sense for you a second, Steve, but but I wanna say something here. This is a great moment because when Justin and I first conceived of this podcast, The Accessibility Breakdown, our idea was to uplift the thought leadership content that people in accessibility are doing, right? and and it’s been great because we’ve done that.

And this is really this is a cool moment for me because I think this is expressing like the value and in in all of this. So the article that Steve that Nick wrote, Steve, was inspired by a podcast we did. It was one or two ago. if I can if I can find it real quickly, I’ll tell you which one it it was.

Justin Stockton (31:13)
Well, at the time of this

we haven’t posted the one from last week, so yeah.

Mark Miller (31:18)
okay.

So it was actually the last the last the last podcast that we did. So by the time this comes out it’ll be two podcasts ago. Where we talked about an article written by a woman, Bianca, am I remembering that right, Justin?

Justin Stockton (31:31)
Briankaprince, yes.

Mark Miller (31:32)
Yeah. where she wrote about the but it

Steve Faulkner (31:37)
Sorry.

Mark Miller (31:37)
Hello, hello, this is Steve Faulkner. How can I help you? That is an old school ring.

Steve Faulkner (31:46)
Sorry.

Mark Miller (31:46)
That’s a old school ring. No, that’s that’s

Steve Faulkner (31:49)
I know why, because it’s the wrong I’m sorry, cause I I have to take this. Hello?

Mark Miller (31:56)
You gotta mute yourself.

Steve Faulkner (31:58)
Yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah. Hi.

Mark Miller (32:02)
The big question is Justin, do we keep this in the

Justin Stockton (32:06)
No, I would go ahead and do the thing. Well no c cut it.

Mark Miller (32:10)
So anyways,

the what I was gonna say is that Nick was inspired because he heard our podcast and he rewrote it. So I I feel good that this is working to perpetuate that thought leadership and and

Justin Stockton (32:29)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Miller (32:29)
and bring this all around and uplift like it’s the rising tide that you and I had really thought about with all this. And I I feel really good that that’s

Justin Stockton (32:40)
It makes me so happy. It’s yeah.

Mark Miller (32:41)
It’s occurring. Yeah. Yeah.

And it’s just one like if you think, you know, Bianca if you’re listening to this episode too, it’s that one little spark that you made with your article and how that’s caught on and caught on and caught on and caught on. And it’s causing you know, now Steve comes in and he doesn’t even necessarily know the origins of it, but he comes in and he’s been profoundly affected and and it’s caused him to think deeply about these things.

Steve Faulkner (33:10)
I’m really sorry

for that. It’s just that little bit of backstory whether you can cut this out, but but I huh? I yeah, no, it’s just that it’s

Mark Miller (33:18)
I’m not inclined to cut things out, Steve. I’m not inclined to cut things out. This is probably more interesting than we actually are.

Steve Faulkner (33:26)
just a personal thing that that I was to get I’ve bought a new car, sold my ol old one, bought a new one. I was expecting to get delivery of my new one today. It’s like it’s gonna be three weeks.

So it was that was the guy. But also the fusion about me turning it off is I bought a new phone, I’ve got the old phone, and I was trying to the old phone I was trying to to turn the sound off and the old phone, it was the new phone that was really, really loud. So I apologise. Yeah, it is i it is

Mark Miller (33:57)
Technology’s hard. Technol it’s

it is the solution to and cause of all of life’s problems, just like beer.

Steve Faulkner (34:03)
I mean i yeah, talking

my my my daughters are just amazed the fact that I’ve been doing this for thirty odd years now and this is how I type, you know, with two fingers still. I’ve never learned to touch

Mark Miller (34:15)
No, I haven’t two fingers.

Steve Faulkner (34:17)
type.

Mark Miller (34:19)
Well listen, so we were just talking about how cool it is. Like the article that you mentioned was inspired

Steve Faulkner (34:26)
Mm.

Mark Miller (34:26)
by a podcast that we did talking about an article that this Bianca woman wrote. So we’re just really happy that that this podcast is having a d a desired effect and yeah.

Steve Faulkner (34:36)
Yeah, it’s gets the conversation, gets the party started. And and

the you know, there are certain people like like Nick who well, he has a disability and he also is a is a deep thinker. I

Mark Miller (34:50)
Yeah.

Steve Faulkner (34:50)
mean it doesn’t you know, like every person yeah. Like I you know, there’s this this idea of

Mark Miller (34:54)
Yep. It’s it’s fantastic.

Steve Faulkner (34:56)
of nothing without us, you know, which is which is great, but it it doesn’t mean you know, s having a disability is a superpower.

type thing, you know, there even though there’s inspiration port and all those sort of things, but w what am I trying to say? What I’m trying to say is that that there’s some people like Nick that are are are are thought leaders. I think that’s what you would you know and it’s great to be able to,

Mark Miller (35:25)
Yeah. Nick is yeah, Nick is a big

Steve Faulkner (35:28)
you know, get him going in the conversation. It’s the same as I don’t know if you know Eric Egg Eggert.

Yeah, I mean you know, the and Carl I mean there’s certain people that I that I think ’cause quite often these days I think, well, I don’t know how to answer that, but I’ll know something that does. And so then I’ll refer to them, you know, and get them to draw it into the conversation. Especially about things at W three C, about the WCAG developments. It it just works. So

Mark Miller (35:59)
Yeah.

Steve Faulkner (35:59)
yes.

Mark Miller (36:00)
Well, we’re huge fans of Nick’s and we’re also honored to have Nick as a fan of the podcast and and just just love the way that things are are are bouncing around w with these incredible minds. but let’s let’s get to the last one here and and and wrap up on it. and I think this is one that you brought to us, Steve, Hyperblam. You want to tell us

Steve Faulkner (36:22)
Yeah. Okay.

Mark Miller (36:23)
about about this?

Steve Faulkner (36:25)
Well it’s it’s it’s interest well I found it interesting because it’s by Hayden Pickering, a guy that that I know and adm f admire because he’s very creative. He’s also very, you know he’s well known for his accessibility chops, you know, he does he’s written books, he does he’s a great presenter and

I don’t know if you’ve seen the his web briefs, which are short videos. And they’re really gr like I really like the animations, but you know, they’re really with a twist. Anyway, the this this hyperblame is something that he released just fairly recently in the last couple of months, and what it is is a way to edit and create music in the browser using the

the the web audio like the I think it’s the web audio API but also the the audio elements and things like that. He’s created c custom components out of the w the audio elements and actually so it’s just like you know having a a a mixer in in your browser.

Mark Miller (37:35)
Wow.

Steve Faulkner (37:37)
and I haven’t actually got got that far to actually use it because I’m not but

What what I have done is that there’s a number of examples on there and there’s one called something horror hole, and hyper horror hole or something but but anyway, it’s it’s just this music that that plays. It’s an example of what you can do. And I had that running for a while and then I had so many tabs open on my in my browser window, you know, that on my browser that I

I didn’t know where the sound was coming from, but it was just there. And then like I went upstairs and ’cause my daughters live up like we have a two story flat and my daughters live upstairs. I came back down quite late at night and it was in the my my office was darkened and I could just hear this eerie music playing. So I mean you know, it’s a propos of nothing, but it’s it it’s I I just love seeing stuff that he does.

’cause he is very creative and but also that, you know, I know that the that it will be accessible out of the box because he always thinks about those things. And I don’t

Mark Miller (38:52)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Faulkner (38:52)
know if you’re aware, but Hayden Pickering w contracted T V G for an egg for a about a year or two.

Justin Stockton (38:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steve Faulkner (39:01)
and so he was around and and yeah he’s just a great guy. And inspiring.

Mark Miller (39:07)
Yeah, well that’s fantastic.

And and I love examples, you know, I think that people like Hayden and products like a Hyperblam sort of show everybody that you can just build with accessibility and that you can build quality products with accessibility and build it with a web. Yeah.

Steve Faulkner (39:20)
Yeah. Yeah. And build it with the web as well, which is a is but

s sorry, I was just gonna say that that that the the thing is is that I was I interviewed had had a guy called Doug Sheppers on my podcast a couple of weeks ago. I haven’t published it yet ’cause I’m I’m a bit behind. I’ve got about five people that

Mark Miller (39:39)
Fireside chat podcast. Mm-hmm.

Steve Faulkner (39:46)
but that

He w he worked at the W three C for ten years and he was instrumental in development of SVG, but he was also very involved in the web ab the development of the web audio API. And he had some interesting stuff. Like, you know, there’s so many specs at W three C and I didn’t have a real handle on it, but it the the interesting thing was that he was talking about something that that is actually being used you know, really good examples of

of its use in the browser by by Hayden currently. So

Mark Miller (40:26)
Yeah, and and I think the other p point that you brought up, like from an accessibility standpoint, Steve, is a sort of web first, right? Like

Steve Faulkner (40:34)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (40:34)
HTML first, web first, and having that sorta be the rule, you know, instead of the exception because it’s accessible.

Steve Faulkner (40:40)
Having said that, Mark, yeah. It’s just always a I mean, having

said that, it’s the accessi accessibility first. I mean, because, you know, we deal with and and and also you know, as individuals, we use apps and things like that. I tend to I prefer web based apps to actually apps because you know, like I’ve got I use LinkedIn, and

I prefer to to view it in the you know, use a browser but on the phone it it the the quality of the thing is is is so poor with the web based one that I’m forced to use the the the web the the actual application, you know. And

Mark Miller (41:23)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Steve Faulkner (41:27)
a lot of you know a lot of organisations produce apps that and again

they need to be made accessible and they and they often need help to make to how to do that. Luckily there’s lots of good information out around there and and there’s in particular these guys from AAPT, these Dutch guys, they or Dutch people that that have a company and th they produce a lot of really good guidance that is available to us all. So

That’s one of the important things I I think that you know that having I’ve always thought that get as much information as out there as y as you can and you know just share. That’s what I’ve always liked to do. Overshare some might say.

Mark Miller (42:24)
Any any comments on this, Justin? On Hyperblam?

Justin Stockton (42:27)
This

is really cool. I my son, my oldest, is really interested into MIDI sequencing. And so he’s got a little app on his phone and he’ll sometimes get in the car and be like, Listen, he’ll transcribe music that he’s heard into the MIDI sequencer

Steve Faulkner (42:46)
cool.

Justin Stockton (42:46)
and play it off and he does it all by ear, like he’s not looking at anything. And so he’ll like here’s here’s you know, he’s strung together a series of chords.

into into something and it’s I’m like, whoa, wait, I actually recognize what that is. so I’m gonna show I’m gonna he’s fifteen

Steve Faulkner (43:00)
So how old is your son, Justin?

so he’s he’s a good age then. I yeah, I can’t

Justin Stockton (43:06)
Yeah. So I’m gonna sho I’m gonna show this.

Steve Faulkner (43:08)
believe the th that you have a fifteen year old son. You’re only about twenty yourself. True, true.

Mark Miller (43:14)
Here we go. Here we go. Well, you know what, Steve, I’ll

the last thing I’ll say about Hyperblame here is that I hope that you mess around with it and it helps you develop

Justin Stockton (43:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Miller (43:24)
an interest in music because music’s really wonderful and can play a great role.

Steve Faulkner (43:29)
Well, I’ve

I’ve managed to get through well, I managed I’ve tried like I’m I’ve always been interested in the idea of s doing sampling and things like that, but it’s just I I I am an aficionado and an enjoyer of music, but I don’t yeah, that I don’t have the skills or chops to be able to I know my limitations, Mark. That’s that’s what I think that’s why I I have such a sense of longevity

Mark Miller (43:53)
When I I thought of you when I

Steve Faulkner (43:56)
in this business because

I know what I can’t do.

Mark Miller (44:00)
Well I I thought of you when I visited London this was maybe about three years ago. I came in the day after the Sleaford Mods played live and if I had my schedule was slightly different, I would have

Steve Faulkner (44:11)
What definitely would have yeah.

Mark Miller (44:13)
I would have been at that concert. So

Steve Faulkner (44:15)
I went I went to the first giga that I’ve been to in about twenty years

and it was the sleeper mods paying I went with my daughter and her girlfriend and it was great. I mean it’s not something Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Mark Miller (44:25)
If you take nothing away from today’s episode, listen to the Sleefered Mods. All right.

I think that that’s it’s it’s time to wrap it up. Listen, Steve, it was it was great having you join us. I know it’s late in your day, over in in London. It’s early for us, but hey, you’re you

Steve Faulkner (44:39)
I’m I’m sun, yeah, it’s the sun setting time for me.

Mark Miller (44:42)
you’re a you’re a professional and we appreciate it. And boy, we just appreciate you joining us in in

Steve Faulkner (44:48)
I

Mark Miller (44:49)
everything you’ve done over the years and all the content you’ve contributed and thought leadership you’ve contributed and everything else is is fantastic.

Steve Faulkner (44:56)
Thank

you. And to the just, you know, right back at you. And both you and Justin are are people that that that I like. So you’re lucky that I like you ’cause if I didn’t that I’d I’d be yeah. But no no. I

Mark Miller (45:08)
So now I have a that’s

Steve Faulkner (45:09)
mean it’s always a pleasure and and I’ve always have time for you guys as I have time

Mark Miller (45:15)
Appreciate that.

Steve Faulkner (45:15)
for other people that I like. So yeah.

Mark Miller (45:18)
Did you hear that Justin? I got a second friend.

Justin Stockton (45:21)
That’s right. And Steve, I’ll see you in October.

Steve Faulkner (45:24)
Yes,

yes, yes, yes, yes. I’m really looking forward to seeing you, Justin. You should come up, Mark. I mean, you’re in New Hampshire, it’s not that far. Yeah, I mean the Adrian’s

Mark Miller (45:32)
Yeah, Toronto’s what they’re talking about. Yeah, well I’m I’m considering I’m considering it. I actually

Steve Faulkner (45:37)
gonna be there. I mean there’s lots of people Eric Bailey’s gonna get well, I think Eric Bailey’s gonna be there, but there’s lots of people that are worth seeing and Lloydy Lloydy is is presenting

Mark Miller (45:50)
Nice.

Steve Faulkner (45:50)
there, so you know, well maybe you

Maybe you don’t want to see Lloydie, but I d yeah. No. Well I wanna see you, yeah.

Justin Stockton (45:57)
For me.

Mark Miller (45:59)
Alright. We

gotta we gotta wrap it up. thank you so much. Yep.

Steve Faulkner (46:03)
Okay, but thank you. Thanks

for entertaining my absurdity.

Mark Miller (46:09)
Any anytime, anytime. We really enjoyed it. Now that we have broken down accessibility for you, we hope you go forth and keep it accessible.

Steve Faulkner (46:20)
Thank you.