Episode 13 – Mean What You Say & Stoic Accessibility

Episode Summary

Special Guest: Nicolas Steenhout

Nic on Instagram

In this episode, we dive into practical insights on web accessibility through the lens of Stoic principles, evaluate the effectiveness of carousels, and discuss the importance of genuine inclusion in accessibility efforts. Join us as we explore how mindsets and real-world challenges intersect with creating accessible digital experiences.

Main Topics:

• Applying Stoic principles to improve accessibility mindset and resilience
• The challenges and misconceptions surrounding carousels in web design
• The importance of authentic inclusion and “nothing about us without us” in accessibility efforts
• Practical advice, research findings, and ethical considerations for accessibility professionals
• Three stoic principles for better web accessibility
  • Steve Frenzel
• Your carousel isn’t showing more content – it’s hiding it
  • A11y explained with Diana
• Not Every Supplier Who Says “Accessibility and Inclusion” Actually Means It
  • Christiane Link

In this episode:

• Nic shares his extensive background in digital and environmental accessibility, podcast projects, and advocacy
• The trio discusses how Stoic ideas like managing emotions and choosing virtue align with accessibility work
• Analysis of Diana’s research on carousel usability and accessibility shortcomings
• Critical perspective on companies claiming “accessibility and inclusion” without genuine commitment
• Reflections on the role of lived experience and community involvement in effective accessibility solutions

Resources & Links:

• Disability Community, What Disability Community? (2002 article by Nic)
• The Work Between Podcast
• A11y Rules Podcast
• Marcus Aurelius – Meditations 5.1

Go to all episodes

Transcript

Mark Miller (00:01)
Hey, welcome to the Accessibility Breakdown. I am Mark, and this is

Justin Stockton (00:05)
Justin?

Mark Miller (00:06)
and we also have with us Nic.

Nic (00:08)
Nic.

Mark Miller (00:10)
Hey Nic. every week we pay tribute to those who stand out to us as leading by accessibility by picking three topics that strike us in some way. this week we have three topics, but before we get into our three talk giv topics, I want to introduce Nic because you’re all probably recognizing that

We’ve got a new face and this is Nic. We’re super excited to have you because you are we are honored to have you as the first guest to the accessibility breakdown, right? a something we hope to continue doing. And I think it’s just Nic and I go way back. We’ve been working together and accessibility advocates together for many years now. So it’s just exciting that to me, Nic, that you’re the first

First new voice and face on the accessibility breakdown. Can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself, what you do, and and your own podcasting too, please?

Nic (01:10)
but first I have to say I didn’t know I was gonna be the first, so it’s both exciting and daunting.

Mark Miller (01:17)
You’re gonna be fine.

Nic (01:19)
but but yeah, so yeah. I’m Nic Steenhout. I am an accessibility guy. I’ve been working in accessibility since the early nineteen nineties.

initially in the built environment. I’m a wheelchair user and the ADA had just come in, so I was doing a lot of building accessibility audits and training and I also was interested in digital stuff. So I was building websites and suddenly my accessibility needs in the real world clashed with my understanding of building websites and

I haven’t looked back. So I’ve done quite a bit. I’ve worked with, you know, mom and pop shops and I’ve worked with airlines. So I’ve done a lot of work. I think my biggest fun is doing training and teaching people about accessibility. I’ve done that through obviously corporate events but also conference speaking and all that. I run a

Two podcasts. One is the Accessibility Rules Podcast. that’s been dormant for a while, but I have 165 episodes all up between the two series. I think the series that excites me most these days is the Accessibility Rules soundbite where I interview disabled people about the barriers they face on the web. Because I think that when people hear it in the words of disabled people, exactly what the impact is.

It makes a difference. And I’ve just started a new podcast which has nothing to do with accessibility, but it’s about disability and creativity and identity and it’s called The Work Between. So that’s me in a nutshell.

Mark Miller (03:22)
Great. thank you for that. And we’re gonna make sure that we link to all those podcasts and stuff, Nic, from the the podcast page here. And I wanna say that the with with your new podcast, right? I’ve gotta thank you because you invited me to come on that, not as a guest,

But to flip rolls with you, which was a really cool concept, and be a host so that you could you could talk about your work between. and

Nic (03:53)
That was fun.

Mark Miller (03:54)
my goodness, Justin, was this a good time? I don’t I can’t explain why, but just getting ’cause it’s all about people’s art and why they do art and and and them and and and so much more, right? Like their whole

kind of who they are and and why they do what they do and the things that have impacted and influenced and you know we talked about art and we talked about the martial arts and we talked about accessibility and we talked about so much stuff. it was a lot of fun. So that has not dropped yet. When it does we’ll make sure that we send it out there. But you should check out all of Nic’s podcasts because they’re they’re very, very good and they’re very cool. All right. Well so

We’re here for a purpose, and that is to break down accessibility for people. And we’ve got three articles that we want to talk about today. So I’m gonna go over those three articles really quickly and then we’ll dive into the first one. Sound good, everyone? Alright, beautiful. So the three articles we have today are Three Stoic Principles for Better Web Accessibility. And this is by Steve Frenzel, and I’m hoping I pronounced that correctly.

I love this concept, I love this angle to write this from, so I’m particularly excited to talk about that. And then what became a little bit of a theme here for for the articles, the next one is your carousel isn’t showing more content, it’s hiding it. And this is by a woman named Diana who writes under Accessibility Explained with Diana. and then an

the third one we’re gonna talk about today is called Not Every Supplier Who Says in quotes accessibility and inclusion actually means it. And this is by Christ Christian Link. Is that am I reading that right or is my brain playing with me?

so

Let’s dive into the first one. The Stoic Principles for Better Web Accessibility. Justin, why don’t you give us the quick breakdown of this one and we’ll get into it.

Justin Stockton (06:10)
Yeah, so this is a blog post.

The author of this one, Steve Frenzel, so he was listening to a podcast where he was interviewing this guy, Arthur Brooks, was interviewing Ryan Holiday about his book. And he was kind of which is about this the stoic principles, and he was kind of like like really kind of started to like have this light bulb moment of how the stoic principles kind of

can be used or applied to accessibility and his particularly his work in accessibility. And so he went kind of through and there’s a lot of different stoic principles. and for those that don’t know, stoic principles were they’ve kind of become a fad within the past couple of years. well maybe not necessarily a fad, but they’ve kind of re-emerged the past couple of years. and they’re typically principles around it self development, courage,

wisdom, like kind of building yourself up and having a good foundation for everyday life. And they originally ki come from like Marcus Aurelius and like some of those Roman

folks from

Mark Miller (07:30)
Leaders.

Justin Stockton (07:31)
you know thousands of years ago.

Nic (07:33)
The old guys.

Justin Stockton (07:34)
the old guy, the old guard.

Mark Miller (07:36)
I always thought

of stoic principles as almost like like Zen or Taoism, but in that Western kind of Roman Yeah.

Nic (07:41)
Yeah. Yep.

Justin Stockton (07:42)
Yeah. Like a western approach, yeah.

Mark Miller (07:46)
Yeah. But it’s that sort of you you get that same kind of like quips of wisdom and self-def self-improvement.

Justin Stockton (07:53)
Yeah. But what I liked about this article is one, I’m not a hu like I listen to a couple of podcasts that talk about stoicism, one of them are from Ryan Holliday. and so it’s it kind of always sits in like in the back of my mind. I’m not like I haven’t like not walking around my house in like a toga and like, you know, trying to like become one. but like it’s it’s an interesting way.

Mark Miller (08:17)
Welcome to the TMI section of the accessibility breakdown.

Justin Stockton (08:22)
But what what I like about I always I always love looking at accessibility through a different lens. Like and with stoicism stoiism is kind of starting to make its inroads, and I would guess where this kind of getting more of a fan base type thing, is a lot of people in like technology and dare I say like technology like bro culture is kind of picking up on some of the stoic principles.

and so anything that might reframe accessibility into a language or some way of communicating to folks in a way that they’re all that they already get, that they already understand, I like it. Like that’s always a thing for me. I love different perspectives, different lenses to view the same thing that I’ve, you know, been looking at for years. So

Mark Miller (09:19)
I agree. I think that we all are gonna res things are gonna resonate with us in different ways. And presenting any information in multimodal like that just increases the chance that individuals out there are gonna find something, you know, a a way that resonates with them

Nic (09:38)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Miller (09:40)
most. let’s run through the three principles.

The three stoic principles that that they write from. The three that he chose. There’s a lot.

Justin Stockton (09:46)
Sure. For the three that he chose. So there’s there’s a lot.

Mark Miller (09:53)
Right, right. I get I get all that. Okay. So the first one, we’ll do them one at a time, and and I I want to hear what both of you how both of you feel about this principle. And I’m just gonna give the principle to start with, and not not the commentary around why the apprentice principle applies. so you guys chime in when I’m done. So the first one is

Manage yourself, not the outside world.

Nic (10:21)
Mm.

What what struck me there was the this idea of not taking personally when things not moving forward and yeah, in a way it’s nice toga, Justin, by the way.

Justin Stockton (10:39)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (10:40)
I was I was looking into the article, I didn’t see that. That’s

Nic (10:43)
I in a way for

me i I mean it’s it’s it’s super important. You can’t take it personally because then it’s gonna destroy you and it ties into a lot of discussion around burnout in in our field. So many people are burning out, and I think partly is because people are taking it personally. but at the same time when you’ve done this work for a while, like I have and the two of you have, and when you’re disabled and you’re

facing issues after issue after issue, sometimes it’s hard not to take it personally because it it feels personal. So

Mark Miller (11:20)
Mm-hmm.

Nic (11:22)
I I I think maybe in this case stoicism is a real position of privilege.

Mark Miller (11:32)
Yeah, I I think you I think you for me you you hit hit the nail in the head, Nic. the sub topic of this or the sub comment in this is having the emotion but not being ruled by it. And which really l leans into your point about burnout, right? I think that that’s what burns us out and I agree with you that for those of us who are managing a disability and I think that

Nic, you probably are most squarely in that category. Your lived experience is probably really but I have dyslexia, so I’m not removed from it completely. Like, you know, that’s that’s definitely thing that it’s sort of like on every aspect of your life, whether it’s your work life your personal life, you are running into a lot of the similar things that cause those emotions and frustrations. So having a way to manage it and realize that

You know, not let it drag you around, I think is important. Any thoughts, Justin?

Justin Stockton (12:35)
No, I I I love what n I love what Nic said. I for me, it’s it’s specifically like the principle itself, like having the emotion and not being ruled by it. it sounds very Vulcan. I the one of the things that I I always try to do is like have that emotion, but don’t don’t let it linger because when it

Nic (13:00)
Mm.

Justin Stockton (13:00)
lingers, then it clouds your judgment and w how you should

move forward and how you should take your next steps and react to it. and in this, particularly with accessibility, it does seem like any opportunity someone can get to push it down, toss it aside, et cetera, they’ll take that opportunity. And so while like it’s like yes, I can be mad that someone is, you know, that an organization is not implementing things correctly.

but as soon as I like hit them back with the same emo w with that emotion,

Mark Miller (13:40)
Mm.

Justin Stockton (13:41)
then they’re

Nic (13:41)
Mm.

Justin Stockton (13:42)
just gonna lock down and not do it. like they’re giving them even more Wow.

Nic (13:45)
they’re not gonna do it anyway, Justin.

Mark Miller (13:49)
you know, I I look at this like the tachometer in a car, right?

Justin Stockton (13:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Miller (13:55)
and what I mean by that is that the emotion is good in as much as it’s productive and it motivates you. But as

Justin Stockton (14:02)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Miller (14:02)
soon as it hits a red

Nic (14:03)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (14:03)
line, it starts to become destructive. So your responsibility is to shift away from that mo emotion before you’re in the red line. And I know Nic, you can relate to this and Justin y you can as well. all three of us.

Being martial artist, one of the things with my students that I try to get them to do is not to react emotionally when they’re sparring. So if they

Nic (14:26)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (14:27)
get hit, for example, they may be frustrated, frustrating, frustrated with themselves if they allowed themselves to get hit. You know, there’s all sorts of in that environment reasons why you become emotional. But when you take the time out to have an emotional judgmental reaction to that event.

You now miss the next moment, and that next moment can be a dangerous moment. And so again, stoicism and and zen and whatever you however you want to think about it, being able to operate next to those emotions versus in them and swirling around with them, I think, is valuable. And life in general, but certainly in accessibility. All

Justin Stockton (15:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Miller (15:06)
right, so the next one, and I’ve got an eye on the time here, choose virtue over comfort.

You wanna start on that one, Justin?

Justin Stockton (15:16)
wait, I think you skipped one. Yeah. Yeah you did. The obstacle is the way, ’cause that was my favorite one.

Mark Miller (15:18)
Did I get out of here? No, I didn’t. I did. I skipped the one that I skipped. everything is an opportunity.

You were ready for the second one. I threw the third

Justin Stockton (15:27)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (15:27)
one at you. See, always be ready. Didn’t

Justin Stockton (15:30)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (15:30)
Confucius or somebody say that? everything is an important Everything is an opportunity, including suffering.

How do you suffer,

Justin Stockton (15:42)
Yep.

Mark Miller (15:43)
Justin?

Justin Stockton (15:44)
Well, I think it for me it’s the everything is an opportunity. and I like

Nic (15:48)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (15:48)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Stockton (15:48)
the example that they that the the author here uses around the carousel pattern. and for me like one of the one of the things that I love is like particularly like being a software developer working in accessibility, is I love to solve problems. And

Nic (16:05)
Mm.

Justin Stockton (16:05)
I love to I think that just about anything that you put on the web

can be made accessible in most ways. Maybe not for everyone. Maybe you’re not going to get it for some of the because accessibility is a spectrum. There’s always going to be edge cases. But maybe you can make it accessible for a lot of people.

Nic (16:26)
Mm.

Justin Stockton (16:28)
And so I love being able to someone coming to me and be like, hey, we’ve got this new thing that we want to do, this new pattern. How do we make this accessible? And like sitting down and figuring out all right how the different users are going to use this.

Here’s a prototype. Let’s put it in front of people. that didn’t work. Like I love that process.

Mark Miller (16:46)
Mm.

Nic (16:46)
Hm.

Yeah.

Mark Miller (16:50)
Any reactions to this, Nic?

Nic (16:52)
Yeah, I think that this idea of everything’s an opportunity is is important for me and I get frustrated sometimes, you know. I’ve worked with so many clients and so many devs and so many designers and so many QA that you end up hearing the same question regularly and you’re explaining the same fix and

Instead of getting upset with that, it’s coming to realize that well, if there’s a lack of knowledge that is so universal, maybe it’s it’s an opportunity for us to actually explain a why it’s a problem and b how do you fix it, even if it’s a very simple fix. If I have twelve different devs in the space of a year that come to me with the same misunderstanding of what this is a problem for, well, it tells me that there’s a missed opportunity for.

teaching it. So I I think that that’s that’s important for us to to look at, not individuals having, you know, misunderstandings, but maybe it’s a symptom of a bigger systemic issue.

Mark Miller (18:09)
Yeah, f you know, I think this resonated with me slightly different. I completely agree with everything both of you said, in the sub sort of heading of this is the obstacle is the way. But I almost thought of it like I think about my kids, right? Or my students or or whatever it is, in the sense that I might deliver a message only to have that message fail or be ignored in the moment.

But that doesn’t necessarily take away the value of me delivering that message. And I think we see it with our kids when you think you’ve been talking to a brick wall. I don’t know, for those of you who have had teenagers out there, you or were a teenager or have seen a teenager or have used AI because AI acts like a teenager. you know what I’m talking about, where you get a ha they half-listen or you just feel like you’re talking to a wall and

Then one day they come to you and they say something or they do something and you think, my gosh, that did sink in a little bit. They were listening, right? And sometimes just the opportunity to say what you need to say is is enough, and you don’t need a big win in the moment for that to carry value and to be an opportunity. Which I don’t think is different from what you guys are saying, but that’s kind of how it how it struck me. All right, the last one is choose virtue.

Choose virtue over comfort.

Justin Stockton (19:49)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (19:52)
so let me read. I’m gonna read because this is a longer sort of sub quote. And this is a quote by Marcus Aurelius, who you mentioned, Justin, at the top of this, from his book Meditations 5.1, for anybody who wants look it up, you can pop that into the web and you’ll find it, or you can look it up if you have the book. On those mornings you struggle with getting up, keep this in mind. I am awakening to the week of to the work of a human being. What

Why then am I annoyed that I’m going to do what I may what I’m made for? The very thing for which I was put into this world? Or was I made for this? To snuggle under the covers and keep warm. It is so pleasurable. Were you then made for pleasure, in short, to be coddled or to exert yourself? I you know.

The simplest way I really like this one, right? Because it it’s sort of it’s sort of don’t like a don’t always take the most the the the pass mo path most well worn. That if it is difficult, if you maybe you don’t feel like you’re making progress, maybe you don’t want to do it because you’ve got burnout, like Nic pointed out, but none of that

means that that is that that difficult thing is the wrong thing to head towards. That sometimes ignoring all of that comfort and feeling and just by habit, by rote, by knowing it’s what you’re supposed to do, you head in that direction.

Nic (21:36)
Mm.

Mark Miller (21:38)
realizing that ultimately through your whole life’s work, everything you do, that this will have an impact on it. That’s kind of what I

Nic (21:46)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (21:47)
pulled

from that. And I think for accessibility professionals that’s kind of a good daily thing to think about, right? Like you do wake up and you do have burnout and I know there’s

Nic (21:57)
Mm.

Mark Miller (21:58)
many days that I would rather keep the covers over my head than get out of them. and and have to manage the same things that I’ve managed day after day.

Nic (22:08)
It’s funny, I used to have a poster a long, long time ago, one of those motivational poster of a a sail ship against

Mark Miller (22:18)
Mm-hmm.

Nic (22:18)
the background of a massive dark storm cloud. And it said, No, a ship in port is safe from the storm, but it’s not what it was built for.

Mark Miller (22:34)
That’s a great analogy. I love that.

Nic (22:37)
And and you know, it it’s it

Mark Miller (22:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nic (22:39)
it it ties that thought for me.

I keep showing up day after day. I don’t want to do it some days. I’m just you know, I’m I think we have all flirted with burnout, but the reality is we gotta do it because if we don’t do it, who else is gonna do it? And we want to leave the world a a better place. I mean I know it’s cliche and blah blah blah, but

Mark Miller (23:06)
Right, right.

Nic (23:07)
but the reality is I will feel satisfied

Mark Miller (23:10)
Okay.

Nic (23:11)
if the world is more accessible after I’ve gone through.

Mark Miller (23:14)
Yeah. Well and I and the other thing I think I just want to point out too is like w through this discussion it sounds a little doom and gloomy. But a lot of days the thing I want to do is peel the covers back and

Nic (23:28)
Mm.

Mark Miller (23:28)
get to my desk and do the work. Right. That’s probably the norm. It’s just that to your point, Nic, like we all hit these moments when

Nic (23:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Miller (23:37)
we question it and question whether we’re doing it and it becomes uncomfortable.

Justin Stockton (23:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Miller (23:42)
Anything you wanna add, Justin, or are you ready to move on to the next one? Okay.

Justin Stockton (23:48)
I I thought there were I actually thought there were some interesting similarities between that last principle and then the article that Nic submitted. So maybe we’ll revisit that a little bit.

Mark Miller (23:58)
Okay, w the next one we’re gonna g go into is one the one on carousels. What’s that?

Justin Stockton (24:05)
Not the one the Nic’s admitted.

Mark Miller (24:07)
Not the one that Nic submitted, but the this one in this last topic, the the choose virtual over comfort, it uses carousels as a as a practical example of something that is very oblique thing for accessibility folks that other folks love and w it makes us uncomfortable. so the the the

Follow-on article here. The next one we’re going to talk about is called Your Carousel Isn’t Showing More Content. It’s hiding it. So I thought this was a really nice tie-in because this gives sort of the practical explanation around the challenges with carousels. And this one is by Diana who who as I said before writes under A11Y explained with Diana. And it really it’s it’s a a quick article.

but it goes through some of the challenges from an accessibility standpoint with carousels. but also it makes a really good point about like, hey, marketing people and everybody else that loves this carousel, it might not be doing what you think it’s doing. and she points to some research that says like most pe 90 something percent of people, I’ll look at the exact numbers in a minute.

But they see the first thing and they sort of ignore the second thing. And this desire we have for the carousel to be able to add a lot of messages and content to a page in reality is probably not coming across that way to the user.

you guys are probably much both much more qualified to talk about this because you’re both way more technical than I am. So I’d love to hear what you all think about the article and and carousels in general.

Justin Stockton (26:10)
Yeah, I I thought it I thought it was a good article. I mean, I think it’s a I think it is it is what’s nice about it is that it is concise and it is something that you can print it, print it out, and putting that in air quotes, and hand it to director of marketing, you know, your customer success people, whomever is whoever is asking for that carousel, like it very specifically points out here’s the problem statement, here’s why you shouldn’t do it.

And if we do have to do it, here’s the hurdles that we have to jump through in order to make it accessible to everyone

Nic (26:45)
Yeah.

Justin Stockton (26:46)
and why we have to do that. So I like that it kept it very direct, very succinct. it’s also the first article on carousels I’ve read in a while that hadn’t linked to the should I use a carousel website.

Nic (27:00)
I I I have to say I cannot get away from that should I use a carousel.com. Jared did amazing work. I I really

Mark Miller (27:08)
Mm-hmm.

Nic (27:08)
love that. to me the the this article was great because it did have a technical aspect. All right, if if we’ve exhausted every other avenue that no, actually we shouldn’t use one, here’s how how we do it. In a way it’s like going back to what you were saying

I don’t even know if we were on on record or not, Justin, but you said, you know, we can make just about everything accessible if we put our minds to it. So no, we can do that. But I like this question of is it because we can do it that we should do it?

Mark Miller (27:46)
Right.

Nic (27:46)
And I I think that really that’s a really good message that comes through from that post.

Mark Miller (27:55)
I agree. And there is a lot of practical advice, there’s checklists. So I think it’s I think the message resonates even better for exactly what you said, Nic, because they say like, Hey, do you need this? Right? It may not be doing what you want. And then and then they go on to say, This is how you do it if you’ve gotta do it. Nielsen Norman group found that users overwhelmingly interact with the first slide while subsequent subsequent slides are ignored. She links to that. So

That’s interesting. And then the first large-scale eye tracking study of carousel interfaces found that people browse carousel layouts differently than traditional web pages, changing many assumptions. And then they talk about she talks about the 508 requirements around carousels. bottom line is you you gotta have controls on If they go by themselves and you can’t stop that’s not good. You’ve gotta be able to stop you’ve got to be able to go back to content. but even if you put all that in place.

maybe rethink whether this is really achieving what you want it to achieve, I think is the the takeaway here. Hm.

Justin Stockton (28:59)
One thing that I would like Yeah

Nic (29:00)
A cheese

Justin Stockton (29:02)
I I would love to see I I’d love to see an article like that because I like it’s concise. It’s something I can hand somebody that explains everything.

Mark Miller (29:10)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Stockton (29:11)
But like here’s here’s alternatives. Like you want a carousel. If you if you want a carousel because it does X, here’s a pattern to ex choose instead. If you want it to do if you choose in it because of Y, here’s a different pattern that you may lose.

Nic (29:27)
Mm.

Justin Stockton (29:27)
So

Here’s some alternatives you may consider as alternatives to carousels based on whatever why are you why you’re choosing to implement this in the first place.

Mark Miller (29:38)
Yeah. Well I think you just maybe Al I explain with Diana. I think Justin just came up with your part two of this article.

no, that’s that that’s a that’s a good point. And I’m d not so sure that the space was available for that here, but that would be a great addition and follow up. All right, let’s get into this final one here. This one was really super interesting, I thought. not every supplier who says accessibility and inclusion actually means it, and this was from Is it Christian? Am I reading that? I don’t know why my

Justin Stockton (30:12)
Christian Link.

Mark Miller (30:13)
what’s that?

Justin Stockton (30:14)
Christian Link.

Mark Miller (30:16)
Christian Link. and so Christian sort of makes the point that there’s a lot of people, a lot of companies like like us, right? Us being Justin and I out there that do this work called accessibility, but th they’re they’re not all created sort of equal and just because they have and I and I love that she used words I have in my title, my company name, but just because those

words are in there doesn’t necessarily mean that the company’s following those those principles. so Nic, I would really love to hear your because you probably deal with this more than we do, because you’re in a position of talking to these companies often

Nic (31:02)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (31:03)
and needing their services. I’d really love to hear what what resonated for you in this article.

Nic (31:09)
There’s there’s a couple things. First, I see a lot more and more people and companies on LinkedIn especially that are talking about accessibility and and if you’ve been around accessibility for a while d you start seeing the flavor of this. It’s like yeah, they’re they’re having the right wording, but

Do they actually know what they’re talking about? And and then you scratch a little bit and and you see this this post about PDF accessibility and there’s a massive AI generated infographic with no alt text. Right? So that that’s that’s little bits of symptoms that

start make me anyway question how how does someone do how does a company actually understand accessibility are they just aware of whether it’s the the European Accessibility Act or

Mark Miller (32:13)
Mm-hmm.

Nic (32:13)
whether it’s the DOJ Title II ruling or HHS or all the the new things that are starting to to you know loom over companies

are trying are people trying to cash in on it and don’t actually know what they’re doing. I’ve I’m seeing some of that. And the other part of of the article that really resonated with me is this this idea of of nothing about us without us. it’s something that it’s a concept that’s been important to me since the days I was doing disability rights protest back in the nineties.

And she points out, you know, is the is the studio you’re hiring, do they have accessibility baked in, but do they have disabled people on board? How can we have training about accessibility given by people that don’t have the lived experience? Which I really love the idea. At the same time, this becomes for me a a little bit of a

Hmm. What do I do about this? Because well, I’m disabled. I use a wheelchair. I have arthritis. I have a mild hearing impairment. I have undiagnosed ADHD, I think. So I I I’m, you know, I as someone said on a t shirt, I’m all buggered up. But the reality is

Mark Miller (33:47)
Okay.

Nic (33:49)
that my disabilities don’t have

Don’t cause a major impact on my ability to use the web. So, how how do I reconcile that? I can teach about how to use a screen reader, but the reality is I’m I’m not blind. So I question myself. I am a disabled person, so I’m meeting that that requirement of if you’re having people giving you training about accessibility, make sure they’re disabled. Okay, but

Do I need to if I do a a day training, do I need to have a blind trainer, a deaf trainer, all the disabilities that I’m covering in the training? Or is my knowledge of the disability community for the last thirty years, working with literally thousands of disabled people, is that enough? And if it’s enough for me, might it be enough for someone who’s not disabled, who is in the same

circumstances. So I I think the article for me causes some questioning that is healthy. I don’t

Mark Miller (34:58)
Yeah.

Nic (34:59)
have answers. I only have questions.

Mark Miller (35:01)
I think that that’s a really good point. And I I do I think I do have some feelings around that, Nic. And I think that I think one, what you’re talking about, I mean, I had the had had some of the same thoughts, and I think it’s a very literal interpretation of the point, right? I think that there’s also i we work in this world of digital accessibility where there’s also what you and Justin have, and that is just the the technical chops to understand.

the code and what needs to be done. Like all that’s extremely important too. And in the case of testing, screen reader testing, you actually need people who aren’t just native screen reader users because if a modal pops up, for example, and it’s not announced by the screen reader, visually, if you can see and you’re testing with a screen reader, you very

You very much understand that something was presented that the screen reader user can’t perceive. Whereas if you’re just a if you only had a screen reader user in the loop, that might be something that’s act missed, right? So it’s sort of the reverse. So I don’t I I think the answer is, Nic, that it takes a community, right?

Nic (36:11)
Mm.

Mark Miller (36:12)
And that you you are exposed to people who are blind, you have the techno

technical proficiency, you understand nothing about us without us. You understand that yes, you may be able to t do a technical conformance test to Wikig 2.2 level double A and come up with the right answers, but you need somebody different if you’re going to

Get usability insight beyond what those technical guidelines can tell you.

Nic (36:42)
Mm.

Mark Miller (36:43)
And I think that that’s where this all comes in: it’s the right people at the right time for the right reasons. And that so many companies out there, I mean, she used overlays as the example. Here’s an overlay, plug it in, it fixes everything. enjoy it. Have a great day. by the way, it’s really super cheap. And

People ate these things up, organizations ate these things

Nic (37:07)
Mm.

Mark Miller (37:08)
up, and then lawsuits started to fly. Be for for false marketing, for people started to go after the companies that were using them, knowing that they didn’t have a full solution, like all this bad stuff happened, and that is a case where you either you have one of two things going on, you have zero people accessibility people with disabilities in the loop, or the people that are in the loop.

are there for value signaling and are not legitimately in the loop, which is the other side of this that drives me absolutely mental is when the people with disabilities are on the marquee, but they’re not really truly part of the solution. And that is not, they’re not, that’s not how that works, you know? So anyways, I’m gonna I’m gonna be quiet because I could keep going. But I think that you’re

I think anything that challenges you, Nic, is is good and I think you’re good if

Nic (38:03)
Hmm.

Mark Miller (38:05)
if my opinion matters to you at all. But I think it’s important for us to be asking ourselves these things all the time.

Nic (38:10)
Mm.

Mark Miller (38:11)
Justin?

Justin Stockton (38:13)
No, same you know, a lot of the same thoughts that you both shared about that. It’s that you know, as someone who myself doesn’t have a disability, I don’t check any of the boxes, so to speak. but as a caregiver to someone with a disability, like and I like I I feel like I’m kind of like in by association, like, hey, I know a guy. which when I read articles like this, and there’s been

a lot of these articles, especially or I feel like over the past year, year and a half, I always kind of read them and I’m like and I like I feel not necessarily attacked, but it’s like it’s like, well, like I’m just not I’m not getting it. Like I get the article. I understand the article and I’m, you know, cheering for the article. But then I also feel excluded from the article.

Nic (39:05)
Mm.

Justin Stockton (39:07)
and I know that’s not the intent. It’s the the intent about the community and everything that you

kind of mention Mark. but at the same time I can’t help but feel a little bit excluded from that.

and that’s tough. But at the same time, and

Mark Miller (39:21)
It’s fair.

Justin Stockton (39:22)
that’s why I’m coming back to that Marcus Aurelius quote. Like, even though even though there’s that challenge of not of of being kind of excluded from it, I still want to get out of bed. I still want to go and do the work

Nic (39:36)
Mm.

Justin Stockton (39:36)
because I do know that I can make a difference. So

Mark Miller (39:40)
Yeah, and I’ll say again for both of you that I d that’s I did not read that intention in the

Nic (39:46)
Mm.

Mark Miller (39:46)
article, like in the subtext of the article. And I think that, you know, by the way, Christian Link, like what an incredible subject to tackle. And I think to manage every single nuance is is almost impossible. And I think that the reaction you’re getting from some of us is is inside of those nuances that are hard to to handle. But

I think that you know, because you’re you’re you’re you you’re a caregiver of a child that has a disability, Nic, because you’ve got experience as a person with a disability, even though it may not directly relate to the web and because of my dyslexia and ADD, it helps us understand how that community should be put together to create a successful situation.

Nic (40:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Miller (40:36)
versus hey I’m a consultant that’s come into this company out of nowhere that didn’t know what a screen reader was a few minutes ago. And I’m gonna tell you guys how you should operate. You just don’t have any of the context under which to manage that group of people and that’s where we see you know that kind of stuff happen. Or I see a a business opportunity here. I’m gonna create a widget. I’m gonna throw marketing around it and

Justin Stockton (41:01)
Grab some stock photos. Yeah.

Nic (41:02)
Yeah.

Justin Stockton (41:04)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (41:05)
and it ends up not serving. And one of the things that gave me comfort in the article is when there’s that list of things to ask an

Justin Stockton (41:15)
Yes.

Mark Miller (41:15)
accessibility company and I’m like, yeah, that’s I would have I would have answered them all in the I’m gonna throw up air quotes here in the right way. and I think that that’s more, you know, and I think people would disappoint me, Nic, you you know

I I think that you you don’t expect everybody in this business to show up with a token disability as as their you know,

Nic (41:38)
No, no.

Mark Miller (41:39)
passport to be able to get into the business, but you do expect them to to to show up with a proper empathy to be in the business.

Nic (41:43)
Yeah. I and you can always

learn. I mean, you know I believe we need new blood in in the digital accessibility expertise

Mark Miller (41:53)
Mm-hmm.

Nic (41:54)
consultancy and people can learn. I

Mark Miller (41:59)
Absolutely.

Nic (42:00)
I know this is not supposed to be something touting our own work, but I will say this.

Mark Miller (42:05)
Mm-hmm.

Nic (42:07)
Back in two thousand

Mark Miller (42:08)
Let’s do it

anyways.

Nic (42:09)
Yeah, back in

two thousand two, so it’s not recent, two thousand two, two thousand three, I wrote an article called Disability Community, What Disability Community. And two things I said two things. One is disabled people need a disability awareness training. That’s one thing.

Mark Miller (42:29)
That’s good point.

Nic (42:30)
And the other is that I know a lot of non-disabled people that get it.

a lot better than some disabled people do. And when I know people like Justin with your background, I will say, don’t feel bad. You know more about accessibility than a lot of these new accessibility people coming and flooding them with their so called expertise. So yeah.

Mark Miller (43:02)
Great. Well well the let’s I mean hats off to that article because

Nic (43:07)
Mm.

Mark Miller (43:08)
I think anything that makes particularly a group of people like us, somebody like you Nic, really step back and and think is that’s a successful piece of writing. That’s why that’s why we look for all the stuff and great one for us to tackle here. any last

Justin Stockton (43:27)
Yeah.

Mark Miller (43:28)
w go ahead, Justin.

Justin Stockton (43:29)
I love

that we had like one article, like three completely different viewpoints from it. Sorry, three.

Mark Miller (43:36)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Stockton (43:37)
D am I doing it right, Mark?

Mark Miller (43:41)
For ASL three is this way. Yep, there you go.

Justin Stockton (43:42)
Three.

Three completely different viewpoints on from the same article. So that’s what

Mark Miller (43:49)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Justin Stockton (43:50)
I love. That’s why I like I like this podcast. I like

Mark Miller (43:52)
That’s well written.

Justin Stockton (43:54)
yeah, I like th all the different viewpoints because someone who’s reading that article, they may have a fourth. They may agree with one of the three of us. So

Mark Miller (44:03)
Yep. Great. Well any last we need to wrap it up, but is any anybody have any last points that they want to get across before we shut her down?

Nic (44:13)
Just want to say thank you for having me. it’s been fun.

Mark Miller (44:16)
Thank you for being here, Nic.

Justin Stockton (44:18)
Yeah, it’s great having you.